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Failure In Iraq
#1
If anyone doubts our complete and utter failure to bring about a desired, and lasting, peace in Iraq, that is stable and representative, here is a classic example of why they are wrong.

As much as Biden is a loud mouthed dunce, he is still like the stopped clock, which is right at least twice each day. When he suggested the country be divided along its main groups, Bush refused, and the rest is now history. Iraq is destined to be a war zone until all three major groups declare independence and secure their sovereignty the barrel of a gun. And its going to happen.

What is so terrible is that what could have been accomplished so easily after 2003 is now going to be the hardest thing for the residents of that country. I can only hope that Bush's legacy will have all this pointed out for everyone to see. But it will be after the fact, and the blood letting just keeps on going.

One more reason to fence these Islamic kooks in from the rest of the world.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#2
I feel for the Kurds. They probably deserve independence but either the Shiites or the Sunnis will sell the Kurds out to the Turks in exchange for their oil rich territories. To think it took 10 years and trillions of dollars to completely tear an entire country apart...What a waste.
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#3
John,

I guess I cannot understand why you think the USA has or had the right, ability or authority to decide to separate Iraq into 3 sections?? Should we do that to Guatemala also? How about Canada, think we should divide them into 3 sections? How about Sri Lanka? Switzerland?

Why stop with Iraq, couldn't we do this with Egypt, too?

You deride Georgie and Ron for their "USA is GOD" mentality then turn around and act like the United States of America should and could have divided a sovereign nation 5000 miles from our shores into 3 sections.

As Goldwater said in 1964, "When will men learn"???? Iraq is NOT our toy to play with.

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#4
Patrick, naturally I would rather we never went into Iraq in the first place. Clearly they had no real part in 9/11 to begin with.

My point is that once we did what we did, we could have held a referendum and let the people decide. My guess is that they would have decided to split up.

Hey, its going to happen eventually. It could have been done peacefully, but not now. Now, thanks to our meddling, we have removed the one beast capable of holding the mess temporarily together, and replaced him with what is there now? What a damned shame.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#5
I took John's comment to mean to divvie them up into their natural tribal areas until a representative government could form that spoke for the entire country. Instead we tried to hold together a fractured country that only Hussein's iron fist could hold through terror. We went against the natural order. Iraq was pieced together under British mandate, IIRC, they were just as clueless as we were.
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#6
(12-23-2011, 12:12 AM)ghoullio Wrote: I took John's comment to mean to divvie them up into their natural tribal areas until a representative government could form that spoke for the entire country. Instead we tried to hold together a fractured country that only Hussein's iron fist could hold through terror. We went against the natural order. Iraq was pieced together under British mandate, IIRC, they were just as clueless as we were.

Kris, that was my point.

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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#7
(12-22-2011, 11:52 PM)ghoullio Wrote: I feel for the Kurds. They probably deserve independence but either the Shiites or the Sunnis will sell the Kurds out to the Turks in exchange for their oil rich territories. To think it took 10 years and trillions of dollars to completely tear an entire country apart...What a waste.

I agree. W should have listened to dad and stayed out of there. S11
I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves.
~August Strindberg
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#8
None of that matters. Nothing we could have, should have, might have, ought to have done would have prevented yesterday's bombings and bloodshed. The many tribes and factions of Islam just can't and won't get along with each other.
[Image: PancakeBunny.jpg] I have no idea what you're talking about so here's a bunny with a pancake on it's head
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#9
Honestly, I'd hate to have seen how southerners would have reacted in 1865 if we had car bomb technology, had Robert E Lee advanced the idea of a guerilla war effort it still would have been awful down here w/o technology.

Even in 1965 in Mississippi and Alabama I bet several would have exploded.

It ain't just Shiites and Sunni Muslims that haven't gotten along!
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#10
And that is why the world is downsizing, just as John Naisbitt has been saying for at least two decades now.

As tribalism gains more momentum and it is possible to have more representative governments in smaller units, representative demanding people are going to demand it. Its a fact of life.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#11
Possibly, however what the people demand may not be pretty. "The people" being anywhere, not only us.
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#12
If we have the right to determine for ourselves who we choose to lead us, isn't it hypocritical of us to object when Middle Easterners do the same? If they want to be ruled by fear and intimidation, what does that have to do with us?
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#13
You're making too much sense here Kris. Perhaps a reconsideration..............?
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#14
(12-23-2011, 03:48 PM)ghoullio Wrote: If we have the right to determine for ourselves who we choose to lead us, isn't it hypocritical of us to object when Middle Easterners do the same? If they want to be ruled by fear and intimidation, what does that have to do with us?

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#15
And to buttress my point further, there is this: Iraq violence: May was deadliest month for years - UN. Nothing illustrates the Big Government Statist mentality of Junior better than what has happened since the invasion in 2003.

Had Iraq been divided into their natural boundries of Kurdish, Shia, and Sunni states, almost all of this would not be going on. They would have their own natural states, without all this senseless killing.

But being the consummate Statist, Junior was not about to go against his crazy thinking. Now Iraq will eventually revert back to the dictator/strongman status when all is said and done. This time it will probably be a Shia, but still..........................

It just shows that Junior was, and still is, a Dumbass of the highest order.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#16
More likely it shows JR. was following the plan MV posited and chaos, death & destruction in Iraq leading to subservience to the major players is ongoing.
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#17
(06-01-2013, 10:58 AM)Palladin Wrote: More likely it shows JR. was following the plan MV posited and chaos, death & destruction in Iraq leading to subservience to the major players is ongoing.

Why would anybody want to do that? It is ultimately self-defeating.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#18
Lack of competence is a factor.

It is quite possible that the US, after achieving all the goals in the Balkan wars, assumed that Iraq would be just as easy. It was not, and the resources are no longer available to control the situation.

It is also possible that the US made a wrong assumption on the Turkish willingness to invade Iraq.
Sanders 2020

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#19
It still may be that the idea always accepted that these various people groups would remain recalcitrant/chaotic for a while until the time comes when all the chaos,destruction and death makes them amenable to "reasonable solutions", such as a renewed Islamic caliphate centered in Istanbul.

If that's a reasonable guess, the increased chaos plays a role in assisting the movement towards this tripartite split Kaplan wrote of.

I don't think Turkey has to use military invasion, they could be asked for help eventually with the carrot being a new caliphate where the "west" is seen as "giving in" to it.

Most Muslims would love to see that as it would give them what the US offered to the "west" in 1947 as well as enhancing Islamic dignity after all these years of inferiority at our hands.

I really think the chaos is a plus for this idea, it will eventually wear out opposition to this idea.
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#20
Not impossible. Remember that the US and Germany played chaos on the Balkans for years too.
Sanders 2020

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