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The divided states of Europe
#21
Yes of course, the EU is in danger if nothing is done. That's precisely why they are doing something like massive bail-outs.

The idea of eurobunds is for the moment unacceptable because it will make all europeans liable for the PIIGS states. This will stop the pressure on these country to balance their budget.
The markets hope for European Treasury Notes. But given what happened with the US and the current debt heading toward $16.5T, this may not be a good idea.

Greek's debt must remain Greek, Italy's debt must remain Italian and so on.
When all the european countries will have the same amount of debt per capita, then maybe the EU could embrace the creation of eurobunds. But that won't be before at least 10 years from now.

For the moment the ECB could and should buy PIIGS debt massively. But it should in no way forgive this debt or make this debt a shared burden.

The modality of the bail-outs are more a problem than the possibility of such bail-outs. The ECB has the possibility to print at least one trillion euros and see little devaluation against other currencies. They can do it. But they won't give a blank check to the PIIGS.
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#22
(09-14-2011, 03:33 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Yes of course, the EU is in danger if nothing is done. That's precisely why they are doing something like massive bail-outs.

Fred, what you are talking about is a "just do anything" mentality.And "massive bail-outs" are just that: anything.

But Fred, there is only one time where just doing something really works. And that is when you are in the middle of the target area, and the enemy is now firing for effect. You have to get out of the impact areas ASAP.

But what is going on over there will not work using that theory. The Euros have to make informed, and smart, choices. And massive bail-outs are not any of them. The number of failing countries is going to keep accumulating. And the money supply is not infinite. How many bail-outs are enough? Is it really possible to bail everybody out? Does anyone really believe this?

This reminds me of Br'er Rabbit and the Tar Baby. The more you keep hitting it, the more you become stuck, and the harder it is to work free.



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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#23
JohnL, the bail-out doesn't come like a blank check. They are talking steeper regulations on governement spending, more soveriegn debt watch at the EU level, and even a common finance minister!

The EU is fixing its mistake, improving economic integration but it will still take massive bail-outs to avoid a collapse of the banking system in the short-term.
The bail-outs doesn't mean the same PIIGS will be able to spend and borrow as before or even more. Everything is made so that they don't. That's why it's difficult.
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#24
WaPo thinks Germany is doing so well due to entitlement cuts a decade ago. I wish we'd travel this route.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/euro...=z3&sub=AR
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#25
Here is a nice article from the WSJ explaining that the Greek government is really doing nothing about their financial problem. If true, a default may be necessary to clear Greek political minds.

Quote:But others entertain strong doubts about the willingness and ability of the Greek political class to implement the structural measures that will improve the performance of the Greek economy. "The present government has done absolutely nothing during the last 12 months to speed up privatizations, reduce the public sector or open up closed professions," Athanasios Papandropoulos, a leading economic analyst, told me recently in an interview. "In these 12 months it has not fired even one civil servant. The only thing it is doing is trying to tax the private sector out of existence. Why should we believe that they will do something different now?"
One commentator writing in the newspaper Kathimerini this week made the point even more forcefully: "Whereas more than 1,000 Greeks were losing their jobs in the private sector every day in August, the government was assuring civil servants with lifetime tenure that their job privileges were not in danger."

Structural reforms have been repeatedly announced by Greek officials during the past. Yet nothing has happened.

There is more in this LINK
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#26
JT,

If they default, they're free of the debt service problems. It's like declaring bankruptcy. They can't borrow more soon though.
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#27
Yep, and in that case their budget will be balanced, a fortiori. Lots of gummint workers will be laid off or have their salary reduced. Tough times will occur. Maybe a vast firing of politicians one way or another. An actual moment of reckoning.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#28
Ah, but those countries, which sunk big bucks into the bailouts, they will be left with the tab, right?

And who might they be?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#29
Watch, the US is already via the IMF helping bail out Greece and before long might just openly dispatch a trillion or so of our cyber dollars.
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#30
Right you are. And it is one of the things I was hoping would be noticed. The Bamster is determined to "spread the wealth around..................all over the world". And we are all going to pay for it. What a certified Prick!

These people are doing nothing more than playing a Real Life game of Monopoly, and we are all the pieces, to be moved around. Don't you just love it? Ain't Collectivist Idealism just Fantastic!?

Don't let anyone tell you that this is not being done to us on purpose. Because it is. Nobody could be brilliant enough to collect such a huge group of Idiots into one place, and have so much power, were it not done on purpose.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#31
You know, they could have just done NOTHING, and the economy would have been self-correcting. But Nooooooo, they just have to intercourse with the system, squander trillions, and fuck it up so royally that we will take a decade, or more, to get things half way straightened out again, if at all.

Personally I think the feds should round up Junior, and the Bamster, and take both of them way out to sea, weigh them down with cement, and challenge them both to swim back to shore. Let them hold hands as they make a swan dive to the bottom of the continental shelf.

Hey, I'm not even drinking anything, and I am ready to shoot both of them.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#32
May as well include Congress and pretty much the whole system that enabled this as well.
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#33
Hell yes. Or perhaps we can still persuade some Islamo-Kook to place a huge mushroom over DC. That would cut lots of costs.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#34
Not really, it'd just make shit worse without fixing it. I want collapse and possible Balkanization of the US and internal warfare. It'll achieve our ends and remove many undesirables in the process nationwide.
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#35
(09-20-2011, 08:28 PM)John L Wrote: Personally I think the feds should round up Junior, and the Bamster, and take both of them way out to sea, weigh them down with cement, and challenge them both to swim back to shore.

Bad idea.

About the only thing I remember from high school physics is that Shiites float. S6
Sodomia delenda est

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#36
Even with cement weights?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#37
hmm.... worth trying, perhaps.
Sodomia delenda est

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#38
Is this guy right?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...inion_main
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#39
(09-21-2011, 06:58 AM)Palladin Wrote: Is this guy right?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...inion_main

Well Patrick, you know what I think of all this. Had Europe stopped at the Common Market, it would be viable. But no, it had to pretend to be the biggest and most glorified. So in typical Euro-bureaucratic tradition, they over-burdened the system, and as they say, "The rest is history".

Perhaps they will return to the Common Market model, but until then I suspect Mr. Stephens is correct. While Europeans like to put on the face of being just that, Europeans, in reality they are still Germans, French, Italians, Dutch, etc. And they like it that way, because they are tribal in tradition. So rather than embrace that tribalism, the EU attempted to destroy it, and the rest will be history.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#40
EuroTribalism was destroyed when Clovis converted to christianism in the 5th century AD.
He gave up the tribe's gods for the unique and unifying God of the western civilization.
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