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Predecessor to Stonehenge?
#1
I was watching a show on either Science, or History Channel, the other day, and the subject was astronomical observation in Neolithic Europe. And I was particularly intrigued by a segment about what is clearly an astronomical observatory, preceding Stonehenge by around two thousand years. It's called the Goseck circle, located in Germany. Clearly this all has to do with the rise of agriculture, and the importance of celestial bodies in predicting seasons.

I'm wondering if there are indeed older henges located in, and around, Europe that are still older than this observatory. And also the later creation of the Nebra Disc, located in the same general area, but of later creation.

And equally intriguing is the almost universal inclusion of The Pleiades in almost every ancient reference. I'm still trying to understand the significance of this group of stars, more easily observed from the southern hemisphere.

[Image: GoseckSonnenobservatoriuma18621606.jpg]

[Image: nebra_disc%2520_abels.jpg]
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“Conservatism is only as good as what it conserves.” - Friedrich von Hayek -
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#2
One should be skeptical with artifacts like these.

There is no way to accurately date either stone structures (Stonehedge and like) or metal objects like the disc. The only thing we know about stonehedges is that they are indeed ancient, we don't know even this much for the disc... it looks like 19th century decor.
Sanders 2020

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#3
mv Wrote:One should be skeptical with artifacts like these.

There is no way to accurately date either stone structures (Stonehedge and like) or metal objects like the disc. The only thing we know about stonehedges is that they are indeed ancient, we don't know even this much for the disc... it looks like 19th century decor.

Most dating is done via "relative dating". In other words, Stonehenge, the stone part, was predated by a wooden set of structures, which left the base of stakes in the ground. And they are datable via C14. Same thing with the Goseck henge. The wooden posts were still there and thus datable.

As for the Nebra Disc, it was located along with other Bronze Age artifacts, in a fairly credible location. And the Nebra Disc dovetails almost exactly into the Goseck henge, which was a couple of thousand years earlier. And since Goseck was not even uncovered until 2002, why does the Nebra Disc coincide so closely with the henge?

Hey, we could all be living in a fake existence. Everything could be fake, including us too. Our all creating Creator does all this on purpose, so he/she/it may be playing a huge practical joke on us all. Wink1
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“Conservatism is only as good as what it conserves.” - Friedrich von Hayek -
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#4
John,

The pleadies is mentioned 3X in the OT text. Since it is a cluster of 7 stars,my guess is it is a symbolic mention since 7 always represents "completeness" or God.

I have a theory about these things:

In the ancient past,you could see things in the sky you cannot today.

Things are changed with movement and burnout,but,with their mention in many ancient documents,it makes no sense unless the ancients could see something way more than we can today.

Maybe I had some magi in the family tree or something.
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#5
Palladin Wrote:In the ancient past,you could see things in the sky you cannot today.

Things are changed with movement and burnout,but,with their mention in many ancient documents,it makes no sense unless the ancients could see something way more than we can today.

This too (less pollution --- better seeing), but the ancients also had a shortage of things to look at. When did you last feel like even looking at the sky?

On dating (missed this post)

JohnL Wrote:As for the Nebra Disc, it was located along with other Bronze Age artifacts, in a fairly credible location. And the Nebra Disc dovetails almost exactly into the Goseck henge, which was a couple of thousand years earlier. And since Goseck was not even uncovered until 2002, why does the Nebra Disc coincide so closely with the henge?

It is very easy to deposit artifacts into cultural layers...everyone does this, for profits, papers, and simply fun. Wooden stakes are likely real, but this disc is suspicious.
Sanders 2020

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#6
Here is more information on added findings to Stonehenge itself:Archaeologists are one step closer to unravelling the mysteries of Stonehenge
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“Conservatism is only as good as what it conserves.” - Friedrich von Hayek -
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#7
I doubt they worshipped the sun myself. In ancient days, "stargazing" was a profession that societies relied on .

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#8
Yeah, I saw that part too, and don't look at it like that either. The truth is that understanding the heavens is imperative to being a successful farmer. That is what the farmer's almanac is. If a person cannot keep track of the days and where the sun rises and sets, then how can he keep track of the growing season.

Obviously Stonehenge was one huge sundial assortment.
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“Conservatism is only as good as what it conserves.” - Friedrich von Hayek -
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#9
Believe it or not, one more Mysterious Bronze Age stone circle has been discovered in England.

Bronze Age stone circle found for the first time in 100 years on Dartmoor - and it could be older than Stonehenge

I didn't know this before, but the number of stone circles at Dartmoor are quite numerous. But where are the trees, for heaven's sake? This is southern England, not the northern Scottish hills.

[Image: Sittaford-stonecir_3300814b.jpg]
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“Conservatism is only as good as what it conserves.” - Friedrich von Hayek -
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#10
JL Wrote:That is what the farmer's almanac is. If a person cannot keep track of the days and where the sun rises and sets, then how can he keep track of the growing season.
But one doesn't need huge stone constructions and circle shaped tumulus to count passing days. A calendar hanging on the wall would do it as well...

It has more to do with magic and religion (with perhaps some connections with agriculture).
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#11
Fred, religion and agriculture were pretty much one and the same back then. Crops were planted according to established celestial events. There were no printing presses, scrolls, or paper making back then. That's why astrology was so important in ancient times.

As a religious event, the solstice was the primary time, because they knew the time the day would begin getting longer, or shorter. If I remember correctly, it was discovered that at summer solstice, the light from the sun was able to run exactly through the main entrance, to the center of the chapel. That had huge religious significance. And it was all tied to agriculture.

So, those stone circles were both a huge clock, and at the same time a place of worship. I guess in those days everybody wanted one. S22
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“Conservatism is only as good as what it conserves.” - Friedrich von Hayek -
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#12
I agree that they had a cult which may have been tied to agriculture, but it was not a technological necessity or even an improvement because more simple methods to know the date of the year were available and also because a few days doesn't make any difference for seeding. They didn't need such a precision.
These constructions were useful to set a rule, religiousely or semi-relgiousely for the date when starting field works. Poeple always need to believe supertitiousely what they could know rationaly.
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#13
(05-17-2015, 05:33 AM)Fredledingue Wrote: I agree that they had a cult which may have been tied to agriculture, but it was not a technological necessity or even an improvement because more simple methods to know the date of the year were available and also because a few days doesn't make any difference for seeding. They didn't need such a precision.

I think you might be taking a few things for granted. I would challenge you to be dropped off in a field with a shovel and some seeds with the task of getting them in the ground at an optimal time ... without a clock, calender, the internet, television, telephone, radio, cell phone ... etc. etc. Little things like time keeping and basic navigation required enduring landmarks, blazes and monuments ... relying on a shaman or elder alone as a "timekeeper" would be unreliable because they might not be around the same time next year ... and if you didn't know what 'time' it was, how would you possibly determine the "same time next year"?? Even if you knew the magic number 365 ... what if you accidentally lost track? How long would it take to develop complete confidence in the "magic 365" vs simply lining up celestial positions?

Attributed to Daniel Boone Wrote:I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks.

We make the assumption that we can get from point A to point B without the risk of starvation on the journey ... but it wasn't always so. We make the assumption that there are seven days in a week, four weeks in a month, twelve months in a year ... with some tweaking every for years. It seems pretty simple, but if you were never familiar with the concept, what would you do? A basic sundial [in the form of a permanent monument] and means for tracking the path and azimuth of of the sun and other stars seems like it would be a pretty significant competitive advantage ... as well as a rudimentary 'tether' to the concept of time itself. Likewise, it would require some sort of ritual. I realize you would poo poo this as 'superstition' ... but I think it would be helpful to look at it as a way of ensuring "reliability and repeatability" in the decision making process, which would be critically important. It may not seem like a 'rational' approach, but when it comes to endeavors like agriculture, "reliability and repeatability" can be the difference between survival and famine.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#14
But poeple were not stupid. And they could mark up each passing day on a wall or on an animal skin.
Day, night, lunar cycles and seasons are universal things. Unlike our weeks, weeek-ends and months.
I don't think it took them the construction of Stonehedge to figure out how many days they are between the coldest week of the winter and the next coldest week. They had many thousands year to count and experiement before Stonehedge was built.
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#15
Fred, part of religion, as with practically anything of importance, involves the use of Theatre. Stonehenge, as with the other stone circles, were also temples to whatever deity/g-d they worshiped. And it was important to add a bit of magic to the mix.

Remember the "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" movie, where Jones has to take the jewel and stick it on the end of a staff, then stick it in the recess? And then when the sun strikes just right, the light goes into the stone and then comes out on the other side and opens the vault? Well, Stonehenge has this very same type of trick. At just the right place, with the stones situated just so, when the sun appears at just the correct time during the winter solstice, the light shoots between the stones, down the open passage, and strikes the desired location. We don't know who would be there, but it would be a profound moment to those followers, regardless how little science they knew. And the light will only strike at just a certain moment of the year, which means that the sun will start remaining above the horizon longer.
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“Conservatism is only as good as what it conserves.” - Friedrich von Hayek -
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#16
(05-16-2015, 01:08 AM)John L Wrote: Believe it or not, one more Mysterious Bronze Age stone circle has been discovered in England.

Bronze Age stone circle found for the first time in 100 years on Dartmoor - and it could be older than Stonehenge

I didn't know this before, but the number of stone circles at Dartmoor are quite numerous. But where are the trees, for heaven's sake? This is southern England, not the northern Scottish hills.

[Image: Sittaford-stonecir_3300814b.jpg]

That was my first thought the very first time I was within a few miles of the south coast of England, where are the trees?
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#17
One of the things we were taught in history was that the decline of certain civilizations was caused by such mundane things as loss of habitat, due to deforestation. In the case of Greece, the country used to be covered in trees. But after cutting them down, they allowed the land to be used for grazing of sheep. This played havoc with the water table because there was no longer a root system to naturally capture, store, and allow the slow runoff of rain. The result is what we see today: a semi-dry and barren landscape.

In the case of England, this could also have been the result. Remember, England attained its world domination by being the leading seafaring nation, with the strongest navy. This required untold trees in order to build all those ships. But clearcutting almost never leads to a total loss of forests. In fact, clearcutting can be good for the land in that it opens up new ecological niches as the regrowth recovers. Its an entire cycle, and the American Indians actually practiced clearcutting/regrowth by using fire in North America.

But if the English resorted to using sheep for grazing, the sheep would have eaten anything and everything attempting to reestablish itself. And if a seafaring empire cannot renew its fleets, then it is destined to lose its world power status.
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“Conservatism is only as good as what it conserves.” - Friedrich von Hayek -
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