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Doggerland: Europe's Mesolithic Atlantis
#21
Something that mystifies me is this. Take the sphinx and the pyramids we know are under the sands(sphinx was found by Napoleon). How did that happen? Such grand social/cultural artifices and somehow they just vanish from physical and historical sight???

That's like the White House being under mud and no one notices???
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#22
first the christians came trough, who destroyed the library of alexandria, and then the muslims. no doubt both of them would have blown everything up, if they had c4.
the rock from which she was shaped was probably buried in sand, and had to be digged out in the first place. after giza was no longer used as a graveyard, it might have returned quickly to its natural features, and her torso was buried in ancient egypt's times already. interesting that the sphinx as mythical animal lost all popularity, while dragons, unicorns, centaurs etc are still around. there must have been lions in old egypt.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#23
Palladin, your Whitehouse will be burried under tons of mud and craps and nobody will know it was there, that's an idea you will have to accustomed to. Debt is already burrying it metaphoricaly.
Egyptian Pharaos must have had pyramids of debt too. Trait of big civilizations...

The Sphinx'head was never burried (I think) and Napoleon unearthed the body, allowing archeologists such as Champolion to analyse the basements.
A rumor wants that Napoleon shot a the Sphinx Nose for the sake of pride, but it's not true. Nobody knows who destroyed its nose. Probably christian iconoclasts. Pre-muslim times. (thought the Alexancria library burned accidentaly during a clash with the romans, this library also burned several times in history.)

JL Wrote:the Sphinx would have had to have been carved some twelve thousand years earlier,
Twice the age of Earth according to local documents (The Bible). Illogical indeed.
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#24
it would also predate the bronze age. had it been carved with wooden tools?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#25
(06-22-2011, 12:48 PM)quadrat Wrote: it would also predate the bronze age. had it been carved with wooden tools?

Actually stone tools work quite well on limestone and sandstone. Copper and bronze are ok, but usually made for work on marble and granite.

Last time I looked, the Sphinx was made out of limestone. Didn't they have stone tools as late as the Mesolithic? S13

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#26
I just found this neat map showing Doggerland, from the later part of the last glaciation to present times.

   
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#27
Wasn't there an icecap permanently covering half of this Wonderland (or how did they call it again...)?
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#28
I don't quite understand what you mean Fred.
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“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”
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#29
(02-04-2015, 06:52 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Wasn't there an icecap permanently covering half of this Wonderland (or how did they call it again...)?

fred, if it was 'permanent' it would still be there wouldn't it? S5

[Image: pg-9-stone1.jpg]
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#30
Oh, I understand now. Thanks Jack.

Fred, the last glaciation had its ups and down. It wasn't just one continuous straight line at the bottom of the temp scale. Here's one chart, of the later phase, showing what I mean.

[Image: GreenlandIceCores15000.png]

The map above, showed the sea levels, based on certain dates, beginning around 16,000. This would be about 2,000 years following the fullest extent of the ice sheets, so at that time, the sea levels would be increasing, as the ice began melting.

What has my curiosity peaked would be the 8000BP time line. The graph shows a nice drop in temperature at that time, and is when the next time picture is set on the map above. I'm going to have to look in to it a little fuller.
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“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”
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#31
Do you realize that had sea waters not flooded these areas, there would be no British Islands, no poeple livng separate from the others, no Euroskeptics, no Nigel Farrage... Just one more eurozone country called Dogland... S2
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#32
I thought the entire Eurozone is a dogland....
Sanders 2020

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#33
(02-05-2015, 08:06 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Do you realize that had sea waters not flooded these areas, there would be no British Islands, no poeple livng separate from the others, no Euroskeptics, no Nigel Farrage... Just one more eurozone country called Dogland... S2

Wow! Alternate universe Hitler get's a land bridge. That's history makin'!
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#34
Without Doggerland, resettlement from Ice Age enclaves such as present day areas of the Basque country and SW France. In Oppenheimer's book, "Origins of the British", Doggerland is a major factor in why the genetics of many inhabitants of Wales and Ireland have Basque genetic makeup as a majority of genes. In fact, this makes them relict populations in a way along with the basques.
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#35
DNA from an underwater site suggests that there was wheat in Britain 8,000 years ago
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#36
Quote:The research suggests that wheat somehow made its way from the Neolithic farmers of Southern Europe to the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of present-day Britain.

The farmers and hunter-gatherers may have been trading, said Robin G. Allaby, a plant geneticist at the University of Warwick and an author of the new study, which appears in the journal Science.

Almost certainly it was the result of trade. Traders serve two positive purposes: exchange of goods; and also exchange of information/knowledge. Its one of the reasons why traders were almost always granted safe conduct through foreign territories. They created a Win-Win for everyone.

What is also interesting is the Time's speculation that the wheat may have originated from Southern Europe. And by that I'm assuming they are thinking of the Mediterranean area. But the problem is that even though the climate was warmer back then than even today, there were still the Alps to overcome. That would have made carrying a cargo of grain all that much harder.

My guess is that it all came from the Black Sea area. Remember, this is pre-flooding, and the Black Sea lowlands would have been very extensive and ripe for agricultural development. Unfortunately, most of it is underwater, and will have to await more development of underwater archaeology techniques.

Further, the trade route would have been far easier to haul bulk goods, than that of going across the Alps. The map below will show how it would almost certainly have been done.

[Image: carte624.jpg]

Notice how the Danube River covers so much ground, from the Black Sea, all the way into Germany. From there its an easy portage from one of the tributaries to either the Rhine, or the Main(pronounced 'mine' S5 ) In fact there are gobs of maps that show river cruises going from the Netherlands, all the way to the Black Sea, without having to leave one's boat.

It was the perfect trade route, and the Black Sea area was the perfect locality for the advent of agriculture. It was just as important as the Volga played for the Vikings, connecting them with Byzantium in later time. Most people never appreciate just how river trade played such an important part in the development of civilization.

Oh, one other interesting thing that occurred around the 8,000bp time frame. The climate suddenly turned cooler, and would have made any trade over the Alps a bit harder. Here's what I mean.

[Image: B5N_bdWCAAAhovG.jpg:large]

I wonder just how much that dip in temperature, obviously caused by something major, affected trade?
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“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”
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#37
No John, they didn't cary weath from the Black Sea to Doggerland 8000~10000 years ago. The reason is that it was impossible at this time to sail against the current of the river heavy loaded (even when the wind blows in the right direction). The Danube is flowing west to east, so moving heavy freight could be done only in this way.

IMO weath came from a much closer location (France). The seeds could have come from the Black Sea region, in small quantities and gradualy. Not tons of grains.

Not even sure if poeple knew the wheel at this time.
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#38
Who said tons of grain? And who said that river traffic had to be all the way, without overland animals. I'm just saying that crossing the Alps, with the former glaciation still thawing out, would be a very difficult journey.

Besides the advent of European agriculture almost certainly originated in the Black Sea basin, before the flood around 7600 years ago. And too, southern Europe would have gotten agriculture from that site as well.
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“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”
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#39
Here's the 2013 BBC 2 presentation of the Time Team Series, entitled "Britain's Stone Age Tsunami". Its about stone age Doggerland, and the quality is very good.

Here's some short previews of the program.





Here's the full program

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