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Humans carry Neanderthal DNA
Quote:Humans carry Neanderthal DNA, researchers find

Neanderthals and modern humans had sex, says the international team of researchers that has sequenced the genome of our closest relative.

The interbreeding most likely occurred in the Middle East, between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago, the scientists say. Modern humans had left Africa, but not yet moved on to Europe and Asia. At that time, Neanderthals already had well-established populations outside of Africa. This means “cave man” DNA is shared with all the descendents of the early humans who migrated outside of Africa.

Neanderthals first appeared 400,000 years ago. The fossil record shows they were shorter and more powerfully built than modern humans, with barrel chests, large noses and forward-projecting faces. They died out about 30,000 years ago.

“Those of us who live outside Africa carry a little Neanderthal DNA in us,” says Svante Pääbo, of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Biology in Germany. He and his colleagues estimate that 1 to 4 per cent of the genome of non-Africans is made up of Neanderthal DNA.

They didn’t find specific Neanderthal genes carried by present-day humans, like one for red hair. Instead, they say fragments of DNA are scattered through the genome.

Dr. Pääbo didn’t expect to find evidence of interbreeding when he set out more than four years ago to construct the genome from DNA extracted from Neanderthal bones found in a cave in Croatia.

In fact, preliminary evidence, based on tiny portion of the genome, suggested that early modern humans and Neanderthals didn’t have sex, even if they lived in the same parts of the world at the same time.

Now, he his colleagues have been able to sequence 60 per cent of the Neanderthal genome, and compare it to the genomes of five people of European, Asian and African origin.

To their surprise, they found that non-Africans were more likely to have more Neanderthal DNA.

They also did a three-way comparison between the Neanderthal, present-day human and chimpanzee genomes. That has allowed them to zero in on genes that make Homo sapiens unique, including some that affect brain function and body shape.

Their findings will be in Friday’s edition of the journal Science, published by the non-profit American Association for the Advancement of Science.

This probably explains why Middle Easterners like to have sex with goats; they ran out of Neanderthals.
The true purpose of democracy is not to select the best leaders — a clearly debatable obligation — but to facilitate the prompt and peaceful removal of obviously bad ones. 
[Image: rageboy2.jpg]

I think Pakistanis are still mating with Neanderthals.
The true purpose of democracy is not to select the best leaders — a clearly debatable obligation — but to facilitate the prompt and peaceful removal of obviously bad ones. 
Well finally, someone within the Genetic research branch has gotten it right. Anyone, with even the brain of homo erectus, would know that Neanderthal genes were bound to be in modern humans.

Just look at todays Australian Aborigines. They are from older, Homo Erectus, genes, and they can still interbreed with modern humans. Dr Wolpoff, and his followers, including myself, have finally been vindicated.

And truth be told, there are some Europeans especially, who must have a whole lot of their genes, because they certainly look like Neanderthals, especially if you know what cranial characteristics to look for. Even Dr Milford Wolpoff has a good bit in his heritage, I'm sure.

Even in 1999 he was leading the charge to refute the genetics is always right crowd.

Quote:An alternative theory, known as regional continuity, holds that the earliest human ancestors arose in Africa and spread around the world more than a million years ago. Modern humans then emerged in different regions through separate evolution and interbreeding. A leading advocate of this theory is Dr. Milford Wolpoff, a paleontologist at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

"This find should be devastating to the out-of-Africa people," Dr. Wolpoff said. "It shows their theory doesn't work, at least in Europe. And it shows that fundamentally, Neanderthals are the same species we are and they contributed their genes to European ancestry."

By now, scientists said, only a small fraction of Neanderthal genes have survived, the European gene pool having been further mixed through migrations during the spread of agriculture and invasions from the east.

But Dr. Wolpoff cautioned that it would take more than one skeleton to tell the effects of interbreeding apart from ordinary evolutionary changes, the result of genes modifying in response to environmental stresses.

Neanderthal love / Scientists split over how much mating occurred

Quote:A debate is raging among anthropologists over whether and how much our ancestors mated with Neanderthals. The hominids with the large brows and ultra-muscular bodies were once thought to be a forerunner of modern man, then a separate species of humans who developed independently and died out as humans spread into Europe.

Now, as evidence emerges that humans and Neanderthals likely shared the same space for thousands of years, some scientists consider them likely contributors to the modern human gene pool. These anthropologists believe that when early modern humans, the first built more or less like us, came upon Neanderthals around 35,000 years ago in Europe, the groups would have been too similar not to have mated.

"They both would have been dirty and smelly by our standards," says Eric Trinkaus, an anthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis. "They would have been oblivious to the small anatomical differences, like certain details at the base of the Neanderthal skull. To each other, they would have both been people."

Trinkaus co-authored a paper in the latest edition of the journal Nature that dates a collection of curious bones from a cave in Mladec, Czech Republic, at 31,000 years, roughly the time in which Neanderthals were dying out on The Continent. Although scientists agree the bones belonged to early modern humans, the fossils have a number of Neanderthal-like traits, including broad noses, large teeth and a kind of bun in the back of the head where the skull bulges out.

"The Mladec people show that European origins are mixed," said Milford Wolpoff, an anthropologist at the University of Michigan. "You can see it in their remains." Wolpoff has long opposed the widely accepted theory that the features of modern humans more or less developed in Africa and changed little as humans fanned out into Asia and Europe. He believes humans came from a blend of early modern humans and various archaic hominids they encountered while migrating.

"If the out-of-Africa theory was right," he said. "Mladec people should look like Africans. They don't. If that doesn't disprove it, I don't know what does." Wolpoff's views are, however, in the minority.

WarBicycle Wrote:[Image: rageboy2.jpg]

I think Pakistanis are still mating with Neanderthals.

Nah, he doesn't look like a Neanderthal at all. It is a result of the wide angle lense of the camera, using 'barrel roll' to make his face look different. Neanderthals looked much different from a cranial perspective.

Now here's a Neanderthal. Note the large nasal appature, allowing air to be warmed easier within a cold climate. Note the huge eye orbits, and sloping frontal plain. Yep, that is what a Real Neanderthal looks like.

[Image: 56290118a145dc3222c6fdd.jpg]

And there are a lot of them out there, running around today.
Have a Gneiss Day!
modern humans look quite differently due to tiny differences in the genes, and substantial ones in their lifestyles. i wonder if the skull of a distinctly neanderthal looking man looks like an ancient neanderthal skull. i also wonder if the neanderthals who populated a vast region for hundreds of thousands of years, did not look quite differently as well.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
"Q", forensic science has become very proficient at taking a cranium, and reconstructing what that person once looked like. This has also been done with Neanderthals. And surprise, surprise,...........the overwhelming majority of them would fit right in, in some European cities, or communities.

If you take a Neanderthal, give him a good bath, shave and haircut, and dress him in nice clothes, he would pass for a modern human. A somewhat archaic modern human, but still modern. Especially the more gracile ones, who inhabited the middle east, around Iran, and the Black Sea area.

If you look here, here is the cranium of Shanidar I, from Iraq.

[Image: skull.jpg]

Here is the cranium from the front.

[Image: shanidarI.jpg]

Now, if you go to the site of Elizabeth Daynes, right here, you will see that she is an expert at forensic cranial reconstruction. Travel to her reconstructions page, and you will see a lot of ancient reconstructions of early hominids. But go a bit further, to the Neanderthal reconstructions page, and suddenly you will have a very good idea as to just how modern our Neanderthal ancestors really were.

Again, take Shanidar I, and add flesh to it, and Voila,

[Image: neander2-4.jpg] Damn, if I didn't know better, I could almost swear this person looks a little bit like a relative of Vin Diesel, or some other movie Heavies, right?

The point is that cranial reconstruction is very advanced, and it is used with the identification of deceased person, who are unknown, and there is a need to identify them.
Have a Gneiss Day!
What then is the place of Cromagnons in European human heredity? Many people say the Basques are related to them. My recollection from what I have read is that Cromagnons were somewhat taller than modern man, and actually had larger brains. Some people seem to confuse Neanderthals with Cromagnons. But Neanderthals, from what I have read, were shorter than modern man, and had smaller brains.
Warbike, what's with you constantly making racist jokes about middle-easterners? those subtle jokes of yours is getting old fast.
You tend to do this way too much, if you haven't noticed yet.

Yes, there's a lot of middle-easterners who did horrible things, and should most likely be hanged for them. but to judge a whole group based on that... that's like saying even decent ones that had nothing to do with the terrorists at all cannot be redeemed, just because their culture's a "savage" one.
you have to keep in mind that the Muslims were once a progressive people in terms of science, etc. And if they were once this way, they can be again... maybe sometimes soon after this war is over.

Sorry, but this habit of yours were bothering for me a while there so I just had to say it. I didn't say anything for a long time because I understand that patriotism and hatred of "the enemy" can ride pretty high during times of war. and that I hoped that you were simply just taking that to the extremes, instead of actually being an outright racist.
Quote: “A society that puts equality… ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality or freedom…a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both greater freedom and greater equality.” --Milton Friedman
relax. it's only the internet!
Here is the Wolpoff multiregional hypothesis. His point is that early humans migrated out from Africa, and that those early humans were Homo Erectus. Once they spread, they settled in and slowly evolved regionally. Later migrations added to the gene pool, on a regional basis, and today we see the result of this in various racial characteristics.

In other words, Asians are the result of Peking Man(homo erectus), and Europeans are the result of Neanderthal. But added to the mix are the periodic introductions of peoples moving around, out of the mother continent. The theory that modern man, less than one hundred thousand years before present, came in and eradicated the more archaic populations, and known as "Out of Africa", is not very practical. Cro Magnon did not move in and destroy the Neanderthal population. They more or less blended in and interbred, resulting in what we see today.

And finally the evidence is accumulating that the Regional Continuity theory is more or less correct. This site highlights the argument rather well. And read closely the "Assimilation Model", which is most likely the best explanation for all this diversity. This is most likely the end result of the thinking, and really does comply with Wolpoff's thesis, as he has always stated that interbreeding is the most likely result.

The point is that there is just too much diversity between general racial groups, to attribute all this to the so called "Out of Africa" argument. In fact there really had to be many out of Africa migrations, and they were only held back by the coming and going of the Pleistocene glaciation phases. And that also explains isolation of certain groups, such as European Neanderthals, trapped north of the Alps, when movement between Europe and asia were not possible.
Have a Gneiss Day!
JohnL Wrote:In other words, Asians are the result of Peking Man(homo erectus), and Europeans are the result of Neanderthal.

Does this explain why Asians test as more intelligent than Caucasians?

Well, all this is fascinating and thrilling to speculate upon. However, Archeology Today had a long article about how DNA starts decomposing when the host died. Add various contaminants. Add the length of time before the DNA was analyzed. Then question the "sophisticated statistical methods" used to analyze the data. Add the fact that they only had bone from 3 specimens from which to extract DNA. The one realizes that the work is far from done, and the conclusions are far from certain.

Yet, let us hope that this work will displace AGW as the prime preoccupation of Academic fanatics. After all, it is a natural, since it plays into their compulsive preoccupation with racism and cultural relativism.

If this comes to pass, millions of people the world over will be hoping to have neanderthal genes found in their bodies so that they can get restitution for their ancestors being annihilated and other special privileges.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
Now THAT is a novel thought JT.
Have a Gneiss Day!
Non-Africans may lack this DNA they just found.....

This could have big ramifications if you ask me.

If two sub-species interbreed, doesn't that make a new subspecies? And if some races lack this? This means genes and development are different?

Or am I going too deep to be politically correct anymore?
I always thought that europeans and perhaps middle east poeple too had neanderthal traits.
Europeans probably inherited blond hairs and blue eyes from the neanderthalians. These are traits adapted to ice age conditions, now being nordic countries.

G4U, a new specie is by definition when interbreeding became impossible.
Last time I checked, I could still breed with an african. LOL
Sure, I meant sub-species.

Dogs can still breed with wolves. They are both canines as all races of man are human, or homo-sapiens.

What I am driving at is sub-species. At the moment, the current thinking is that we are all the same besides skin color or facial features, especially in a PC-conscious world like the one we live.

Now, if Neanderthals had different traits that they passed on that other humans lack (such as the lack of their DNA in African bloodlines), that brought about different behavior and such, I am saying that we as humans, are all separate sub-species, and not just some common humanity.

It could mean that there are genetic origins of our differences that influence the way we are as different sub-species, and sub-species of sub-species.

We could explain why Europe and China gave us the modern world while Africa didn't for example. It wasn't environment, or maybe it was partially, but it was genetic makeup that determined how different groups of humans behaved and what they accomplished. See what sort of can of worms this could open?

It could be really damaging to the current mindset if we took it further, which I am sure no one will really due to the fear of what they may find and what that will implicate for the rest of the world. I suppose because it may be uncomfortable to many these days, that more research will not see the light of day.

That is what I meant Fred. It could be interesting times ahead of us in the world of human genetics and science.
Neandies, because they live in regions with very long winters and harsh seasonal variations, perhaps developed a more rational and long term way of thinking that african population didn't need.
It should be noted that the mesopotamian bassin, the craddle of our civilisation, was the last area populated with neandies.
And that Black Africa, the only region unafected by the neandy genes never ever produced any stone-build cities, organized armies or writing like almost every other populations did.

Sure it's a can of worm, a breach in politic correctness to even mention that.
Unless you don't present that psychological traits of the blacks as of a less intelligent one. It must be said that their intelligence is working differently, and it's true. Blacks are far from stupid. To the point you wonder why their countries are not more developed.

And they look even less stupid when you consider that we needed their genes, before we, neanderthal descendants could start a real civilisation.
Probably neandies had the save-for-the-bad-day mindset, perhaps instinctively, but only sapiens form Africa had the intelligence to develop manual skills and conceptualize objects beyond their direct usage, and improve them technologicaly. Black Africans are excellent artisans.
What is interesting is that there are a lot of conceptions, and perhaps misconceptions, regarding Neanderthals, and how they used their brains. For example the one thing we do know is that Neanderthals most certainly got in close to their game, in order to kill it. The high number of broken, and mended, long bones backs this up. Only rodeo riders have almost identical history of injuries, suggesting that Neanderthals got in so close that they were easily thrown and gored by the object of their hunting. Later European humans, such as Cro-Magnons, appear to have used more 'stand-off' weapons. Of course, they were more gracile to begin with.

But the fact that Neanderthals had larger brains, and huge occipital regions, along with slightly different placement of the throat, has let many to believe that they were not capable of complex speech, or tool utilization. Yet Neanderthals created quite nice and complex stone toos. We just don't have much evidence of complex art work. So, the prevailing thinking was/is that Neanderthals were much more archaic, and consequently these more primitive people were eliminated because they were not up to 'snuf' with the later migrants.

But the newer evidence is starting to do away with this, and I for one, am very glad to see it occurring. The reason why Classic Neanderthals(European) look so primitive, is because climate dictated a rearrangement of body type. The Inuit Indians are classic examples. They are short Squat, and offer far less surface area, preventing the excess dumping of heat. Neanderthals were living in a similar environment, and it only stands to reason that they would also have bodies that offered less surface area.

But there were other Neanderthals in the middle east, and eastern europe, who were not like their cousins in western Europe, and the weather was less severe, so they didn't have to be as short and squat. And the more or less conform to we later humans.

My point is that Neanderthals were most likely just as sophisticated and capable as the later influx of humans, who entered Europe, during one of the glacial interstatials. The just looked different, because they were forced to genetically adapt to the surrounding environment.

Now, all this is going to open up the next area of study: Homo Erectus in Asia, and how HEs developed over time. Now that is also going to be very interesting, to see how the "Out of Africa" people are going to handle it. Stay tuned. Wink1
Have a Gneiss Day!
I've read that anthropologists attempt to date the age of population groups by genetic drift. They also use this to conjecture the flow of populations in various geographical areas. That should be applicable to the Neanterthal/Erectus problem once the Erectus genome has been sequenced.

It will be very interesting to find out just how human populations flowed, and from which nexuses. There could be some real surprises.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
The problem is that human genetics is a relatively new branch, and it has become the darling of the media and much of science. it's as though they are totally right about everything, and others are just ignorant.

However, the science is not as ironclad as they would have us believe. it's like the AGW science, which uses computer programing to get what they want. All of a sudden, modern humans just moved in and pushed everyone else aside. And all based on mitochondrial DNA findings. It gives one neat little packaged answer, and is easy for the masses, including those geniuses in the Media to crow over.

Fortunately, the truth is often eclipsed, but never extinguished. S6
Have a Gneiss Day!
Perhaps we carry fish dna too.

What is the overlap?
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
I always thought Edward G. Robinson looked kind of like a fish.
The funny thing is that all forms of life has a basic DNA code, which has so much in common. I'm not certain of the numbers, but it is quite high, the correlation. So pointing out fish genes in human DNA is not really worthy news IMO.

Don't human embryos have gill slits early on, which are genetically turned off, and disappear quickly?
Have a Gneiss Day!

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