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Humans carry Neanderthal DNA
#41
(03-05-2012, 10:50 PM)WmLambert Wrote: Jean Auel has a new novel out. The Land of the painted Caves - the latest in her Earth's Children series.

Maybe Ayla and Jondalar will cross the frozen Atlantic and discover America.

Thank you William for injecting the humor since I believe that John is a tad upset over my challenge to the Sacred Cow fashioned by Louis Agassiz. There are multiple layers of controversy on this subject (including the "Out of Africa" thematic), but what riled me here was John's attack on Genetics and genetecists as the origin for the claim that the Neanderthal was "extirpated" by the Sapiens, when in fact such a thesis originated within the halls of Anthropology itself. This particular controversy revolves around the notorious Mezmaiskaya Infant in Russia (see American Journal of Physical Anthropology 114 (2001), p.269-272)

http://www.personal.umich.edu/wolpoff/Me...papers.pdf

In the UMich/JSTOR link does not work--

http://archaeology.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi...iskaya.pdf

We could go into the "common ancestor" route spiel [what I call the "Adam" variant] to explain the DNA commonalities but I feel the John was being unkind in assigning the vagaries of the public press with respect to Neanderthal as some sort of conspiracy by Genetecists. To assuage John's pique count me among those that employ the usage Homo sapiens neanderthalensis...now as far as the children of bear clan are concerned let's leave Auel to her Cro-Magnons.

Of course, this is another instance in scholarship where we could all blame the Russkys for the confusion...
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein
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#42
WmL Wrote:Jean Auel has a new novel out. The Land of the painted Caves - the latest in her Earth's Children series.

Maybe Ayla and Jondalar will cross the frozen Atlantic and discover America.
Ha! So you have been reading that too!
Auel has been more busy in her last books describing in great details how Cro-magnons discovered all the erotic positions we know today...
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#43
(03-06-2012, 09:48 AM)drgonzaga Wrote: Thank you William for injecting the humor since I believe that John is a tad upset over my challenge to the Sacred Cow fashioned by Louis Agassiz. There are multiple layers of controversy on this subject (including the "Out of Africa" thematic), but what riled me here was John's attack on Genetics and genetecists as the origin for the claim that the Neanderthal was "extirpated" by the Sapiens, when in fact such a thesis originated within the halls of Anthropology itself. This particular controversy revolves around the notorious Mezmaiskaya Infant in Russia (see American Journal of Physical Anthropology 114 (2001), p.269-272)

http://www.personal.umich.edu/wolpoff/Me...papers.pdf

In the UMich/JSTOR link does not work--

http://archaeology.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi...iskaya.pdf

We could go into the "common ancestor" route spiel [what I call the "Adam" variant] to explain the DNA commonalities but I feel the John was being unkind in assigning the vagaries of the public press with respect to Neanderthal as some sort of conspiracy by Genetecists. To assuage John's pique count me among those that employ the usage Homo sapiens neanderthalensis...now as far as the children of bear clan are concerned let's leave Auel to her Cro-Magnons.

Of course, this is another instance in scholarship where we could all blame the Russkys for the confusion...

Thank you for so generously linking to what has proven my point. I probably couldn't have done better myself.

I used to use self-deprecating humour by calling myself "Chief Bloviator". However, I must relinquish my crown to you. Henceforth, you are the official Chief Bloviator of this forum. Congratulations.

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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#44
http://io9.com/5890349/genetic-diversity...really-are

not the same topic, but I still found it interesting all the same. you could say it's loosely related to the topic at hand.
Quote: “A society that puts equality… ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality or freedom…a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both greater freedom and greater equality.” --Milton Friedman
relax. it's only the internet!
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#45
(03-06-2012, 05:16 PM)Aurora Moon Wrote: http://io9.com/5890349/genetic-diversity...really-are

not the same topic, but I still found it interesting all the same. you could say it's loosely related to the topic at hand.

Its really not far off the mark Dear.

Incidentally, if you click on that map in the article, and get it to open in a new tab, you will see the bottom group, which is in red. It is Pan paniscus. In other words, Bonobos, which are completely separated from the rest of the Pan family. And when I was in grad school, this group was not recognized as a separate taxonomic group. But they are now.

In fact they are officially a fourth group of apes, and separate from the rest of the chimpanzees. Their social behaviour is different too. They do not use violence as a means of conflict resolution, but rather the use of sex.





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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#46
John,

Do you think the precursors died out more due to us having sex with them and they became us overtime so to speak or do you see the competition for food or us killing them off idea as part of this?
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#47
It could have been a combination of all of the above Patrick. Its really hard to tell what actually happened unless we go back in time and study the situation.

But I don't think I want to be included in the "us" category. S5
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#48
Personally, I think the world was big enough for the few humans who existed way back then and theories of competition between races is too simple

If anything, it was probably something like resistance to scurvy, or some other illness that caused any declines. The occasional race war fighting over a water source or hunting ground may have existed - but there were enough such places for all to coexist. Doesn't it seem laughable that researchers never seem to grasp just how big the world is, and how few and fragile were the people in prehistoric times?

- Except for Ayla and Jondalar, of course.
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#49
Thinking about Clan of the Cave Bear, I would like to see the movie remade with digitally-created Neanderthals that show them as their own species or whatever - and not just hairy brunettes against the blond people. Darryl Hannah wasn't really too bad cast as Ayla, although to be more realistic they should have put Linda Hunt in that role.
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#50
Something like the plague could have wiped out neanderthal like it did tons of Euros and American Indians.
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#51
Quote:bonbobos having sex to resolve conflict

In a way this is actually pretty smart of them. there's no loss of life there when they use this method over war... and their population stays strong.

In a way, I kind of wish more humans used this method in place of fighting. lol although maybe not very realistic considering that not everything can be solved with sex in the human world.
Quote: “A society that puts equality… ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality or freedom…a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both greater freedom and greater equality.” --Milton Friedman
relax. it's only the internet!
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#52
WmL Wrote:Thinking about Clan of the Cave Bear, I would like to see the movie remade with digitally-created Neanderthals that show them as their own species or whatever - and not just hairy brunettes against the blond people. Darryl Hannah wasn't really too bad cast as Ayla, although to be more realistic they should have put Linda Hunt in that role.
I liked the movie better than the book.
(I still read the books because my sister lent them to me)
But the blond vs. brown thing is disturbing, if not racist. (she later repaired that by puting a black african hero in the third book -too late-).
Especialy since there are theories saying that blue yeys and blond hair could be neanderthal traits and not advanced ones.
Blond poeple are usualy more hairy, therefore closer to monkeys than blacks.

It's also likely that poeple at htis time were sorting neanderthalians from sapiens-sapiens off more obvious physical differences like skull, face, body shape and size than just eye colors.
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#53
Jean Auel wrote of Neanderthals who were able to reproduce with more modern types, like Ayla, but described them as significantly different physically. Flatheads had a larger brain - but it was at the back of the cranium. Today's bike helmets would fit them well. She described them as close to apes, in that their bones and muscle mass made them unable to swim. In her vision, they could make noises, but not talk, and had inherited memories.

If any such traits really existed, it seems that these things would be synergistic with the new people - not something that would make them die off. At the end of the ice age, animals and food sources were plentiful - so famine is pretty much ruled out. As for diseases - remember the hugeness of the world and the fewness of the people. In other words. There were no disease vectors. One small tribal group may die of something - but that illness would have been hard to spread. Contacting other groups may have been a once in a lifetime thing.
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#54
Ah the wondrous boredom of taxing taxonomy...

PS: yes this little injection borders on trolldom but as the thread goes onve you bring in Auel things can only go "downhill".

PS to John: Hey where's my "Chief Bloviator" tag? Or are you an Indian giver....
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein
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#55
Are you satisfied now?
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#56
Anthropologists believe that neands spoke only 50 words.
IMO such assertion is baseless since we never heard one talking.
The fact that he haad a brain even than ours, despite the fact that he is considered as less evoluated, is a sign that he may have been capable of as much intellectual achievements as us.
Why neands never build an advanced civilisation is a mystery.
Maybe the problem of neands was that there were never in enough number to create a technological civilisation.
Civilisation become possible only above a certainnumber of poeple.
After all we too didn't buiild a civilisation before the Assyrians, that's about 25,000 years after we appeared.
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#57
But there are persistent legends of Atlantis and Lemuria, which supposedly sank into the sea (or were destroyed by the global flood of Noah's time). If you had a population, even a fairly scattered one, with people having superior intellectual faculties and lifetimes measured in the hundreds of years (as the Old Testament claims), you would have a sort of artisan-based civilization, with regular trade but no great factories or industrial centers or cities (as we would recognize them). Projects requiring concerted effort by large numbers of people probably would not be very common, since everyone would be too much of an individualist. Likely the biggest structures we might be able to find left over from that time (perhaps on the sea floor) would be remains of temples.
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#58
Ron, Atlantis has fed the imagination of the Western poeple for ages, without any proof that it was something special. As you say, a few doric style columns and perhaps a range of cariatide or an arm-less venus. Some broken vases. One helmet. Nothing more.

This is by no means a pre-Antiquity era civilisation.
I mean we never found any remnant of advanced civilisation dating from the stone age (in which case the term stone age would have to be renamed).
Save for stone circles in South Africa. but their datation is disputed.

I always found surprising that in 200,000 years of existance of intelligent humans, and 30,000 years of us being here, there were no other technological civilisation than ours.
Why did we wait that long? My only anser is demography.
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#59
I think as much as we've roamed the oceans with subs, it's likely Atlantis is a myth. Far as Fred's 200K of human existence, why do we think we're that old?

The oldest continuous settlement apparently is Jericho, 7500 years there.

How could we have been around for 200K and not left an older footprint? Every old thing we seem to discover is ~3-5K old, such as ANE tablets, ostraca, Egyptian antiquities,etc.
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#60
Unless something more tangible comes along, I'll go with Plato's description actually referring to the Thera/Santorini eruption slightly over one thousand years before his time. Things get changed and reconstructed over time.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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