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Winning Iraq, through sanctioning Iran? - Independents4Bush - 11-17-2006

I was giving it a thought. It may be a long shot to get sanctions on Iran. Banks are pulling out of Iran, inflation is high in Iran. Could sanctions on Iran cripple Iran long enough to end their support for the insurgents? Its no secret Iran is aiding the sunni insurgents because they want civil war in Iraq in order to deliver Iraqi shittes to them.

The shiitte militias are carrying out massacres against sunnis. An Iran with no money to fund the insurgency could be what gives us enough time to crush the insurgents. However if this doesn't work perhaps a good ol blockade? What do you guys think?


- WmLambert - 11-17-2006

I think what you've stated has been a part of the WOT from the onset. Condaleezza Rice has always placed the financial backing of the terrorists (not insurgents) in her crosshairs. Osama bin Laden has not launched any major attacks, because he is a beggar. His only funds come from a few Mosques and charities, which are scrutinized and shut down quickly. The terrorist networks are a business, with salaries to be paid.

Same thing goes for the Mullahs and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. They rule by wielding the headman's axe. If the executioner is not paid, the axeman does not play. Iran exports crude - and is energy-poor. The push for nuclear power is not just about weapons. Without external support, the whole house of cards comes shuffling down.


- Achilles - 11-17-2006

We've had an embargo since 1980 on Iran. Unless we decided to stop business dealings on said date with anyone else who does trade with them,we're doing all we can on that issue.

Personally,what I think we're seeing is the unraveling of the American led western hegemony globally.
The Europeans are opting out of the unwritten aggreement since 1945. The Japanese are in and a couple of Euros still are(Poland,Denmark and Holland for seperate reasons),but that is not enough support basis for us to have the positive global effect we have had,IMO.

I'm for opting out at this point,our desire to continue in the post war role is causing us to do things determental to our interests. We try to appease those who are harmful to us in attempting to access their apporobation on specific issues.

The fall of the Soviet Empire and the rise of the Islamic Pseudo Empire seperated most of Europe from this agreement.


- mv - 11-17-2006

That the solution in Iraq requires pressuring Iran is certain.

Sanctions, however, are useless; the real question is if the administration will go for a stronger medicine at some point.


- Anonymous24 - 11-17-2006

You assume that pressuring Iran(negative connotation) is the only option. What about offering them incentives to help stabilize Iraq? Such as, recognition of them as a country, and the willingness to trade with them?


- mv - 11-17-2006

Anonymous24 Wrote:You assume that pressuring Iran(negative connotation) is the only option. What about offering them incentives to help stabilize Iraq? Such as, recognition of them as a country, and the willingness to trade with them?

It is quite apparent that Bush was trying to offer this for the last few years; these false hopes are a large reason for the current situation in Iraq. The point where negotiations become impossible is the nuclear program; Iran wants to keep it and get a bomb, and the US cannot afford this.


- Anonymous24 - 11-17-2006

And why is that? They're going to dominate the region anyway. We've learned to deal with Pakistan, far more radical and unstable, having the bomb.


- Independents4Bush - 11-17-2006

Pakistan is not as radical as the Iranian leadership. If Pakistan was willing to kill itself to eliminate a non islamic enemy it would have done India in a long time ago. The point is no matter how much an enemy hates you they need wealth to hurt you. An Iran without money can only sponsor so much terror in Iraq, giving us the opening we need.

I know its hard to get the world to put sanctions on Iran. Would a blockade work though?


- Anonymous24 - 11-17-2006

Quote:Pakistan is not as radical as the Iranian leadership. If Pakistan was willing to kill itself to eliminate a non islamic enemy it would have done India in a long time ago. The point is no matter how much an enemy hates you they need wealth to hurt you. An Iran without money can only sponsor so much terror in Iraq, giving us the opening we need.

...and who says Iran is willing to kill itself to eliminate a non-Islamic enemy?

What is different about Iran and Pakistan is that in Iran, the government is more radical than the people In Pakistan, you have a situation where the people are far more radical than the government. And that is *very* dangerous.


- mv - 11-17-2006

Anonymous24 Wrote:
Quote:Pakistan is not as radical as the Iranian leadership. If Pakistan was willing to kill itself to eliminate a non islamic enemy it would have done India in a long time ago. The point is no matter how much an enemy hates you they need wealth to hurt you. An Iran without money can only sponsor so much terror in Iraq, giving us the opening we need.

...and who says Iran is willing to kill itself to eliminate a non-Islamic enemy?

Iranian's statements (search yourself) make it fairly clear that they are open to eliminating enemy states.

Quote:What is different about Iran and Pakistan is that in Iran, the government is more radical than the people In Pakistan, you have a situation where the people are far more radical than the government. And that is *very* dangerous.

1. You don't know how radical are the Iranian people. Do remember, however, that they elected the current government in reasonably fair elections.
2. Pakistan is to a degree neutralized by Musharraf (who is not an Islamic radical himself), and also by India. Iran is unopposed. This makes Iran a larger threat.
3. I don't think that anyone here fails to realize that Pakistan is a fairly serious strategic threat too...Clinton/Bush, maybe.


- Anonymous24 - 11-18-2006

Quote:Iranian's statements (search yourself) make it fairly clear that they are open to eliminating enemy states.

Judge by actions, not statements. Iran is bullshitting us.


- mv - 11-18-2006

Anonymous24 Wrote:
Quote:Iranian's statements (search yourself) make it fairly clear that they are open to eliminating enemy states.

Judge by actions, not statements. Iran is bullshitting us.

By Action:
* Support of Iraqi Shia militias and death squads
* Support of Hizbollah
* Massive conventional military buildup
* Attempts to develop nuclear arms
* Attempts to develop delivery means
Now, it is naive to disregard statements that are closely matched by actions. Wink1


- Independents4Bush - 11-18-2006

Well the Iranian people had to choose between suicidal and genocidal so don't blame them. Right now you have young people spending money on fashion over food so thats not the behavior of radical jihadists.


- neorealist - 11-18-2006

Blockading Iran is the first step to a military conflict with them...Ahmedinajad would respond with military action IMO...which creates a national fervor in his support...and I would blame the iranian people for the support either.

It seems to me that he is going to have serious re election problems and his support internally is dwindling. I think his regime will collapse internally if we give it time.

Its a difficult balancing act though. if we give him too much time and he gets re elected then he's going to be nuclear...no doubt about it. Which will lead to an arms race in the mideast. gross unstability follows by the price of crude skyrocketing and hitting us where it hurts. Sanctions through the UN are an obvious dead end, b/c the Russians, Chinese, and prolly part of Europe won't go through with them....just to keep us in check.

I think the best move now is rally ME support by the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Iraq (hopefully, but who knows how true our leverage is there right now) and maybe neighboring afghan and pakistan...and we always have Bahrain and Qatar too. We need to fuel the oppostition with in iran. Doing that is the real question and problem to tackle IMO. Anything such as sanctions, blockades, and military conflict just rallies the Iranians behind Ahmedinajad and he'll sit in power for a lot longer with FULL domestic consent to go nuclear and become more nationalistic and jogging towards a Iranian dominant ME.


- Anonymous24 - 11-18-2006

Quote:You don't know how radical are the Iranian people. Do remember, however, that they elected the current government in reasonably fair elections.

One of the problems conservatives have on this issue is separating nationalism from radicalism. Ahmedinajad won because of the invasion of Iraq. Don't forget that right before him, the Iranian people elected an intellectual who wanted to democratize Iran and grant civil rights. Khatami's election was a clear blow against the mullahs. Yet, a few years later, Ahmadinjad was elected. Clearly, the invasion of Iraq is at fault. We've made the Iranian people elect someone who doesn't really refelct their views just so they can tell Bush to go **** himself!

Quote:* Massive conventional military buildup
* Attempts to develop nuclear arms
* Attempts to develop delivery means

Every Third World country with any amount of money is doing this.


- mv - 11-18-2006

Anonymous24 Wrote:
Quote:You don't know how radical are the Iranian people. Do remember, however, that they elected the current government in reasonably fair elections.

One of the problems conservatives have on this issue is separating nationalism from radicalism.

Separating the two is impossible in the current Iran.

Quote:
Quote:* Massive conventional military buildup
* Attempts to develop nuclear arms
* Attempts to develop delivery means

Every Third World country with any amount of money is doing this.

Wow! I did not know this. Please name such countries, only NK comes to my mind right now....

Do further notice that Iran develops its own weapon production, does not just buy someone else's toys.