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Rioting in Europe - Palladin - 10-05-2006

This is not about now though,this article was written back in 2005. Is this man right about the causes?


http//www.brusselsjournal.com/node/444


- John L - 10-05-2006

He is absolutely correct here. And note that he quote Bat Ye'or, who is an expert on this. If the Euros don't DEMAND that muslims consider their country first, and Ialam second, they should deport ALL of those who do not. Other wise, they are going to rue the day, I'm convinced.


- Palladin - 10-05-2006

John,

I tend to think he is right. I'm not positive though. I like the analogy with our black riots where they felt left out of our overall "national pie" instead of what he thinks these 2cd generation Muslims want which is another pie altogether.

Maybe this is the minority,but the religion itself teaches that Islamic culture is the best option. So,even though most Muslims aren't acting this way here now,their religion certainly does teach them we are not the superior culture,their's is.

Deportations? That's gonna be real rare. I assume they can kick them back if they violate laws,that's one way to conduct business.


- John L - 10-05-2006

Palladin Wrote:John,

I tend to think he is right. I'm not positive though. I like the analogy with our black riots where they felt left out of our overall "national pie" instead of what he thinks these 2cd generation Muslims want which is another pie altogether.

Maybe this is the minority,but the religion itself teaches that Islamic culture is the best option. So,even though most Muslims aren't acting this way here now,their religion certainly does teach them we are not the superior culture,their's is.

Deportations? That's gonna be real rare. I assume they can kick them back if they violate laws,that's one way to conduct business.

Stripping citizenship is not all that unusual. We do it in this country. Send them back to their familial home of origin.


Re: Rioting in Europe - mr_yak - 10-05-2006

Palladin Wrote:This is not about now ...

The heck it isn't!!

Again with the deportations!! Maybe there, not here. Mormons think that their culture is superior. Evangelicals think their culture is superior. Budists (quietly) know that their culture is superior. What's new here? As long as you don't have the jihad ranters allowed to run about in the streets (do you see that here?) like they do in Europe ... I don't see the huge internal threat that you're so worried about. Particularly when there are plenty of external threats that should get our attention.


- Palladin - 10-05-2006

Yak,

I had JUST seen that article and was fixing to add it myself. WOW.

I guess the French police have an opinion similar to the article above,huh? Look at their casualty rate,it's astonishing.

Where we are going to continue to disagree is Muslims here. I think you are naive to think they are different. They're all following the same neanderthal's lead,Mohammad. He's their star . Just because one resides here doesn't change that.

They're just not as bold YET over here,they weren't acting this way in Paris just 20 years ago either. Give them time,you are going to see the same. As we appear weaker and more confused,they will act bolder as in Europe. The image of weakness is what inspires these people,that's why any loss of any battlefield will be a disaster of the first rate for us.

We do have the jihad ranters running about our streets,Yak. They are just in the "defend our brothers intellectually" mode right now. Give them time to become bold,they're going to. It will start in Michigan where they are many.

CAIR is the obvious example,as soon as they sense we are weak enough,they'll fly into action outside of cash and intellect. It's already started on our college campuses,you just aren't aware of it. There's a jihad ongoing as we speak at Berkley.


- mr_yak - 10-05-2006

Palladin Wrote:Where we are going to continue to disagree is Muslims here. I think you are naive to think they are different. They're all following the same neanderthal's lead,Mohammad. He's their star . Just because one resides here doesn't change that.

Yep. We are going to continue to agree to disagree. Because it strikes me a bit too much like Germany in the '30s. Swap muslim for jew ... it's the pretty much the same approach. I have no problem with capital punishment for certain crimes. And I figure that we are absolutely stupid if we don't figure out a good way to remove real trouble makers from this country. Simply deporting even the bad apples can still cause problems. That's why a place like Gitmo is essential in this war. What the British are doing in actually subsidizing these folks is absolutely mad. And frankly I think the world would be well served if some Nuke Scientists in Iran started getting ricin BBs in the a## like the KGB used to do during the cold war.

... but painting an entire group with a such a wide brush is a mistake. You're not going to convince me otherwise. For one thing, it's simplistic and lazy. I was taught that people should be treated according to their individual character and actions. I'm not very likely to change my thinking because I truly believe that that is what is right.


- Palladin - 10-06-2006

Yak,

If I agreed this was to be handled via the legal process,I would accept your moral equivalency charges here. But,I don't see it that way and neither has our nation.

Now,if I were POTUS,would I order this? No,I wouldn't. because the nation would not follow my orders. In 1942 they would have. That attitude is what I wish we all shared.



You don't agree with me that Islam is THE issue so you see my idea as unrealistic and worse. I do see Islam as the primary motivator of this terrorism and all Islam's supporters are the enemy of human freedom and specifically,the USA,IMO. This would preclude "cultural Muslims" who don't give any more a frick than I do for the religion,they ignore it.

I see all faithful Muslims as partially responsible for this plight of ours,it is their overall culture that has birthed this band of murderous thugs all over this globe.
Let them finally denounce the extremists and their goals. Not one time have I heard that from American Muslim leaders,not once. I ask you,have you heard the first Muslim in America denounce the STRATEGIC GOALS of the extremists?

That silence militates towards my views as accurate,IMO.


Here is an article on book reviews of Europe's problem with Islam. I see no difference in Muslims in London and Detroit except self confidence.

http//claremont.org/writings/crb/fall2006/dalrymple.html

Here is an example of what I fear when our own Islamic adherents gain confidence we're afraid

http//today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-10-06T010722Z_01_L05836401_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-CZECH-PLOT.xml&src=rss

Here is the Islamic rationale for suicide murders. The extremists are GOOD MUSLIMS. Incidentally,the US Army has documented a study itself below(2cd URL) concluding the same information,but our own government is attempting to counter that truth(3rd URL) with more of their humanistic as.s kissing to avoid Islamic "seething" which I could care less about

http//www.meforum.org/article/1003

http//www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52184

http//www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nsct/2006/


- mr_yak - 10-06-2006

Palladin,

Your argument hinges on the possibility that the U.S. is every bit as foolish and disaster prone as Europe. I supose I should wait until November ... but, right now, I don't think so.

If U.S. Muslims were as crazy as you are indicating why did they have to import 19 of them from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere? Why haven't daily suicide bombings become common place? Christianity had a period where it was every bit as barbaric (by modern standards) as what we are witnessing from ... what? maybe a fraction of a percent of the world's Muslim population? In Europe (so-called) Christans disemboweled 'infidels' and heretics. I'm pretty sure that the Crusaders were promised heaven in exchange for slaughtering as many men, women and childeren as possible.

I'm not arguing that there may be some Mosques in this country that constitute undetected festering boils ... and I have no problem whatsoever with sending those folks to Gitmo ... or beyond. But to put the other 99.9% on cattle cars because of it? It's been a long day (and my memory is faltering at the end of it) but when I first read your post I thought you had Nazi references. If so, why exactly did you remove them? Because what you are talking about is exactly what they did. And they too (on one level or another) thought they were in peril. History, however, has a different view ... and things did not end well for them.

Meanwhile, here we go again ... Seriously, when I start fearing Ramadan the way some people in Detroit fear Halloween ... maybe I'll start agreeing with you.


- Palladin - 10-06-2006

Yak,

The main difference between us seems to be you think there is a reasonable chance US Muslims are loyal and rational to a great extent.

My contention is the opposite. In fact,they can't be if they ever were.

1)Which Islamic jurisprudence can anyone show that teaches Muslims to remain loyal and law abiding within an infidel state when said state is at war with Islamic peoples? I think the teachings are the opposite.

2)The comparison between ignorant 1000 AD Christendom and 2006 Islam won't work. Christendom got reformed because adherents read the Bible,Muslims become radicalized when exposed intensively to their book.

My contention is strike while we're strong. Patience and determination are not traits Americans major in. Muslims do.

I see this conflict starkly. Either we change ourselves and return to the hard logic of war of 1944(which means forget the nonsense of post WWII warfare ) or be prepared to know our grand daughters will wear the hijab. Simple as that.

Would I enjoy watching an Muslim mother forced out of this nation? Nope.
Would I prefer seeing it than my grand daughter wearing Bin laden's choice attire? Yep,everyday.

Incidentally,I don't think this entire issue has much to do with leadership. No leader can cause us to begin to think objectively. George Washington here in 2006,what would George do? About what GW does,that's all the people will tolerate for now.


- Anonymous24 - 10-07-2006

Christians became radicalized too when they began the reading the Bible. This didn't really happen till the Reformation, and the result was centuries of religious strife.


- Anonymous24 - 10-07-2006

As for Islam, Islam may be the issue or the result of an issue, but we're not going to fix that by invading countries. It will fix itself as more Muslims are exposed to the things that our way of life has to offer, which will happen through free trade. War is counterproductive because it makes Muslims automatically put up a wall when they might be exposed to anything Western.


- Palladin - 10-07-2006

Anon,

Christendom began reform when Protestants stopped accepting the mantra of the Catholic Church without comparisons with written Scripture. The entire movement is called the Reformation. It didn't happen overnight. I'm not sure what you mean by radicalization.

Before the reformation,most Christian organized events were what I would say today were unScriptural in orientation. i.e. consistent anti semitism,church-state combos,coercion in faith decisions,etc. After the reformation,this type of conduct lowered.

Concerning Muslims and Islam,everyone best hope you're right. I say you're deadly wrong and will end up dying for your faith in Islamic rationality and any offspring of yours will worship as Bin Laden wills it or die because of your naivete.

Here is what Islam really is about,Islam is no different today than 1200 AD and until we accept the challenge and squash their guts out of them,we're in serious danger of slavish existence or worse. This current tiff is the same one ongoing since Mohammad created his Arabic warlord mode of worship.

http//worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52338


- mr_yak - 10-07-2006

Palladin,

Sorry, the approach you are promoting has a little too much facist flavoring for my taste. Maybe that label is a bit wrong, as you appear to be wanting to exclude only one single group ... but what about the rest of us that disagree with you? We probably represent a sizable threat too right? How long before I have to board a cattle car as well? It doesn't have to be about religion or race. In Cambodia it was the educated. Whatever group that is percieved to be threatening must 'removed' ... en masse ... regardless of the individuals themselves. It hasn't worked very well in history. Matter of fact (with some exceptions like North Korea) it has generally lead to quick downfall.

Maybe we can at least find some agreement that it will occur much more rapidly in Europe than here? After all they have an extended history of this sort of thing.


- Palladin - 10-07-2006

Yak,

You don't view Muslims like I do. I see all Muslims as part of the Muslim religion,which is motivated by what I term "Arab Warlord mentality". Even an agnostic like Kamil at the end of the day gravitates to the worst aspects of the faith,as I personally witnessed when Hezzbollah attacked the Jews unprovoked.

You see Muslims as potentially good and loyal citizens(as all other folks can be) of a nation that is directly opposed to almost everything Arab warlord mentality is based on AND which Islam has identified as a major opponent.

I understand why you view me as a fascist or racist or whatever the proper term would be for religious prejudice. It doesn't upset me at all. You're simply wrong and naive from my view.

I really would pose this set of questions as an academic debate thing,because I know my views are shared by maybe 2 other Americans,I am not naive.

1)What about Islamic history/theology indicaes to you that exposure to enlightened culture would change their affinity for Arabic warlord culture?

2)What about Islamic history/theology would encourage you to view the religion as anything but an extension of Mohammad's unrestrained ambitions to dominate all he could find?

3)Why,after viewing European haven with millions of Muslims do we see Muslims acting like Muslims always act? That is also western culture.

Where is your evidence you are right? My evidence is over 1000 years of Muslim history on the borders of the continent that spawned our own nation and finally with us. It is nothing but gratuitous violence to dominate all they know. It always has been and always will be.


These here are no different than those over there,just laying low,listening to their weekly instructions on what Mohammad would have them do,not Thomas Jefferson or Christ.

Read of the life of Mohammad instead of having the naivete to think our culture will impress these people. Our culture is so repulsive to them it's sickening. That's why you can often read of former playboy Muslim youth turned suicide bomer. they come here for the wealth and to get away from the repressive SECULAR dictatorships we supported in the past,they don't come here to be westernized.

What you think they will do is betray their religious training to accomodate us.


- mr_yak - 10-07-2006

Palladin Wrote:I understand why you view me as a fascist or racist or whatever the proper term would be for religious prejudice. It doesn't upset me at all. You're simply wrong and naive from my view.

I called the 'approach' fascist. Name calling isn't what I had in mind. I don't know you and I certainly can't judge you.

But I still can't see equating what is going on in Europe with the future of this country. The Atlantic is a heck of alot greater barrier than the Mediterranean. Regardless of what you think of my POV, we don't have the same appeasement mindset here as places like Spain and the Netherlands. We don't deport Islamic dissenters just to keep the rable quiet. We don't have yearly Ramadan rioting. If the U.S. was half Muslim or a third Muslim or a quarter Muslim or even ten percent Muslim ... it would lend alot more credibility to the notion that they can make our kids wear Burkas. But I don't think so ... nor do I think they will force all the pig farmers in this country into bankrupcy. Cuz the majority of us like bacon. One percent of the population simply doesn't have that kind of lift. Sorry for being naive but I can't see it happening. You never answered the question. If they are all such crazy dangerous bast*rds, why did they the 19 on 9/11 have to be brought in from the mothership? When they hit us it wasn't to change our behaviour to turn us into an Islamic state. When they hit us it was to change our behaviour to get us out of the Middle East and to abandon our influence there. But they pretty much got the opposite.


- Palladin - 10-07-2006

Yak,

I don't think they are "crazy bastards". I don't think Mohammad Atta was crazy. Atta firmly believed beyond any doubt that his act pleased God almighty and carried with it the guarantee of eternity in paradise with the famed 72 houris.
That is deluded,but not crazy. It is supportable within a large segment of Islamic theology today and by over 1000 years of the largest religion on earth,how can we say he was crazy?. This is no new phenomenon,read of the assasins for starters,this religion has always had such nonsense.

Atta had lived here for quite some time,so had several of Osama's lieutenants. Why were the perps overseas guys? maybe because Bin laden has difficulty openly dealing with our Muslims?

He had to make certain these folks would not be agents of ours,etc.

At the end of the day,your view is trust them but keep your eyes open for illegal activity,my view is look at their history and make an objective decision to save the next generation of Americans from what's happening in Baghdad and Europe tonight by humanely escorting them either back to the home state or camps as we did Indians and Japanese before them until those fights were won.

Our ancestors were no more "fascists" than I am,they just had more objective desire to preserve and defend this way of life than we do now.

I wish such things never needed to be done,but da.mned if I'll risk innocent Americans lives or our way of life to be nice to people who revere an Arab warlord that taught them we are all pieces of sh.it and deserve death.

Just read this,the Islamic jackals now have their way in merry old England. Doesn't appear British culture cured the Mohammad complex there,does it???? far be it from us to allow these animal like jackals to ever act this way in America. Brits have dispatched brave young men to fight jihadists in fghanistan and Iraq and have made them prey for Islam when they return home for respite.

http//www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013476.php

Here is an example of conduct allowed by us that we would never allow Christians,this to me is already a sign we are becoming dhimmis to Islam.FYI,this is happening all across the USA as well as Europe and Australia,I just chose this URL

http//www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=408912&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770

Here is a polemic detailing the extent of the free speech suppression already globally due to fear of Islam and they are weak,we are strong! Did Hitler achieve this level of intimidation???

http//www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1887692,00.html

here is a note on one operation they didn't do. How many cops do you need to protect against all their ideas

http//www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20547802-1702,00.html

latest riots in Sweden. Wonder why the jiahdis dislike neutral Sweden? have they attacked Iraq? Or are they just infidels???

http//aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,903010,00.html

Partial English translation from man on scene

Tonight there were power shortages all over Sweden’s second largest city, Gothenburg. “Youth gangs” took the opportunity, spreading the European tradition of “Ramadan Riots.” Within an hour most schools and commercial centers in the north eastern suburbs were vandalized.

- It’s complete chaos in north eastern Gothenburg. “We’ve sent all available police units but there’s no way we can stop the vandalisation,” police spokesman Frank Karlsson tells gp.se.

- Several youth gangs are wandering about smashing windows and breaking into schools, malls, banks and a retirement center.

Riots in Nigeria,non Muslim girl tells Muslim boy "No" and look at what happened

http//www.cbn.com/CBNnews/36608.aspx