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Made greater by who led us to these guys,assuming they are the perps.

http//www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7600400/
They probably are. the local Iraqis are really coming forward now and exposing them. When the pouplation turns against you, it is only a matter of time before you lose your initiative.

I am sure with the right techniques, the authorities will be able to ferett the information out of enough of them to make a positive ID on just who did what.

Perhaps they will lead to higher links. Let's hope so.
JL,

Whereas I realize Jed has a handle on the degree of difficulty we and the Iraqis face to prevail,here is where I think he might be missing a factor for his overall equation.

It seems to me that the sheer level of mass murdering attempts at intimidation,even within the Sunni regions,shows us that the Iraq terrorists are in the worst as opposed to the best set up for guerillas according to Mao Tse Tung's theories.

Not only do they not have active support throughout the nation,they do not have neutrality through out the nation,they don't even have this entirely in their own Sunni regions it appears to me.

So,while recognizing the difficulty and knowing we have a long fight ahead of us,it seems to me that IF the Iraqi people don't falter,we together cannot lose this war.

I stand ready to be corrected.
In reference to what you are stating, from experience I have learned that when the enemy is close to being overrun, short on ammunition, or near the end, the amount of fire they put out is horrendous. I can remember when we would have a firepower demonstration, at the end everything would be unloaded. We called it "The Mad Minute".

This could be what the insurgents are coming to. I can't say for sure, but clearly the Coalition is winning, and only one thing will halt this. And that is a loss of will on the part of the voting public.

Only time will tell on this one. All we can continue doing is simply "drive on". Wink1
Quote:Whereas I realize Jed has a handle on the degree of difficulty we and the Iraqis face to prevail,here is where I think he might be missing a factor for his overall equation.
Palladin - if I may refer you to my post in the other thread referring to the bravery of the Iraqis who continue to volunteer to serve in the police, security and military forces of the new Iraq. I fully recognize the strength of the average Iraqi desire for peace, and am continually professionally appreciative of the occasional flashes of operational cooperation average Iraqis are willing to give in the face of mortal threats to themselves and their families for that very cooperation. I've seen more than one poor bastard who worked for us fished out of the Tigris. The trend of my posts on Iraq, in my own personal, biased perception, has been to try to enlighten what I see as excessive disparagement of the degree of threat that the insurgents and terrorists pose.

As I've said before - they've no hope of defeating us militarily. But they could possibly ignite a descent into sectarian/ethnic war - shades of Lebanon - among the various factions of the Iraqi populace. i.e., with attacks like the recent one on the Shi'a mosque being attempts to prod the Shi'a into indiscriminate retaliation against ordinary Sunni Arabs. Thus far we and the nascent Iraqi government - with strong cooperation from many of the Iraqi factions - have managed to mitigate that threat.

The insurgency has not lost steam, they are not running out of supplies or manpower - but we are well on our way to depriving them of even the slenderest thread of political legitimacy in their fight. Once we get a functioning Iraqi government in place with a real constitution, that battle will be mostly won. After that point, they will find it much harder to obtain recruits - other than their hard-core cadre, many will begin to drift back into Iraqi society (I'm sure you've already seen reports of the proposed amnesty program). After that point, it will be primarily a job of completing the reformation of the Iraqi security and military forces, to a degree where they can be trusted to operate effectively on their own. Not only tactically against the insurgents, but to where they can be trusted to carry out orders from civilian leadership and not get into the coup cycle, as has been too common historically with Arab militaries.

We're still looking at a couple of more years of US military involvment in the fight. But barring an etnic/sectarian disaster leading to conflagration (still possible), I do believe we will ultimately be successful in standing up a real democracy in Iraq.
Jed,

Never misunderstand anything I say,I never intend to be disrespectful of you,Vagrant or John L,you guys are veterans,I'm a weenie wannabe who turned 18 in late 1972,signed for the registration card and was told "the draft is over,you turned 18 at the right time,son".

I sometimes say things that lead people to think I am being disrespectful,poor tact on my part.

I personally very much value your over view,can't say I could disagree with any of it. Know your enemy,wise indeed.

One point I've generally heard several times is the opposition sure doesn't offer much beyond death,destruction and slavish obedience,that's not terribly impressive. Noted this morning the Sunni Muslim Scholars Association has condemned another attack on Shiites and called the perps bad names,that right there tells me long term the terrorists will be floating down the rivers in due time or fleeing.

Another problem I see for the opposition is the secular ones,they HAVE to be concerned that the fanatic jihadists might rule if democracy fails I would think about now.

Read the blurb,"Sunnis Change their Mind" in Chrenkoff's blog,he's overly optimistic,but this is excellent news,it seems the mainstream Sunnis are starting to see some light out there.

http//chrenkoff.blogspot.com/

For some bad news,read about traitorous Shiites helping Zarqawi

Shia Iraqi hitmen admit they were paid to join Sunni insurgency
By Akeel Hussein in Baghdad and Colin Freeman
(Filed 24/04/2005)

Iraqi Shias have admitted taking part in brutal attacks on members of their own religious community after being recruited as paid hitmen for the Sunni terrorist leader, Abu Musab Al Zarqawi.

The confessions to their involvement in murders, kidnappings and car bombings have shocked fellow Shias, who until now have maintained that most of the attacks against them have been carried out by Sunni insurgents intent on starting civil war.

According to statements given to the Iraqi police, gangs of Shia men have admitted taking $1,500 a month - about 10 times the average wage - from Zarqawi's Tawhid and Jihad movement, the al-Qa'eda offshoot widely held as the most ruthless insurgent group in Iraq.

Zarqawi, believed to have been responsible for the beheading of the British hostage, Ken Bigley, last year, makes no secret of his hatred for Shias, whose religious creed is seen as a form of apostasy by followers of his extremist Sunni creed. Over the past year his group has killed hundreds in kidnappings, car bombings and beheadings.

The revelation that Shias themselves had been directly involved in the killings came in a series of dramatic confessions on Terror in the Hands of Justice, a programme broadcast on Iraqi state television in which captured insurgents are quizzed about their crimes. During the broadcast, two cells of Shias admitted being in the pay of Zarqawi.

One self-confessed hitman, who identified himself as Ali Mehdi, a taxi driver from the holy Shia city of Kerbala, said he had led a local cell of four Shia insurgents.

"One time, we captured a minibus with seven soldiers from the Iraqi National Guard in Kerbala," he said. "We drove them into the woods and interrogated them and then shot them with machine guns and threw them into a nearby river."

Mehdi also claimed that his cell took part in mortar attacks on the Black Watch regiment during their temporary posting last November in Latifiyah, south of Baghdad.

Asked why he had carried out attacks on his own people, he said he had been attracted by the salary and the chance of becoming an insurgent "emir" - the title given to fighters who can prove they have killed 10 people or more.

Claims made on the programme are sometimes viewed with scepticism because of suspicions that suspects are beaten into making their confessions. In the case of Mr Mehdi and his accomplices, however, a witness to a kidnapping is understood to have identified the men as being responsible.

Insurgent violence in Iraq is rising once more, confounding optimism after attacks dropped off after elections in January. Yesterday, 13 Iraqis were killed and 49 injured in bomb and mortar strikes in Baghdad.
So I guess the term "useful idiot" not only applies to Marxist kooks? Wink1 Shock
JL,

I see people like a leftist from Europe as a useful idiot,these Shiites are
no less than traitors and might get their own throats severed here before too long.

At any rate,MORE good news concerning the cell that murdered the Bulgarian pilot

http//news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050424/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter

I'm thinking our brave mujahadeen boys are telling on their mates,how non Islamic can these brave "LIONS OF ISLAM" be?
Here's an opinion piece by Bill Roggio. I love Bill,I think he's sharp as a tack,but he's also always an optimist. Anyway,his feelings about the current status of the insurgency

http//billroggio.com/

April 24 input.
Palladin Wrote:Here's an opinion piece by Bill Roggio. I love Bill,I think he's sharp as a tack,but he's also always an optimist. Anyway,his feelings about the current status of the insurgency:

http://billroggio.com/

April 24 input.

"BUT he's also always an optimist? BUT? What is this Patrick? Are you in bed with Michael?

That is like saying, "Yes he is realy a nice neighbor, but(hand placed in front of mouth, leaning into the other's ear) he is a H-O-M-O don't you know.

Or are you just upset because I said that when you died, you were going to go to Auburn. S6 Shock
JL,

It ain't inevitable we'll win,part of our success is on the shoulders of the non terrorist Iraqis. Part of it is in the hearts of regular irresponsible and somewhat ignorant fellow countrymen who don't have a clue why we're in Iraq.

So,those facts there keep me wondering if we'll fail or succeed,whereas you and Bill have no doubts.
Well, this is the crucial time. Contrary to popular belief, the quagmire of Iraq did not end on Iraqi election day. Three months have passed and they still haven't formed a government - it will be interesting to see what kind of government they form; how stable that government is; and most importantly, whether that government can disarm militias.
Anonymous24 Wrote:Well, this is the crucial time. Contrary to popular belief, the quagmire of Iraq did not end on Iraqi election day. Three months have passed and they still haven't formed a government - it will be interesting to see what kind of government they form; how stable that government is; and most importantly, whether that government can disarm militias.

I believe that is called the "Democratic Process". It is at least as bad as making sausage, remember? And just look at the "sausage" making process here in this country? Wink1
If 1 looks at all the errors and trials we've had since 1783,I personally think the cynical among us are WAY out of line expecting these folks to get up to snuff in 1-2 years what has taken us a few hundred to correct and we STILL have failures and we don't have suicide bombers trying daily to force us into an internicine civil conflict,but HEY,some geniuses expect them to hash it all out properly in say 90 days or let's return Hussein to office,right?

I mean,what exactly was the problem with obeying Hussein anyway? Do as you're told boyo.
CJCS says "Iraq insurgency undiminished in past year"

Quote:I think their capacity stays about the same," Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said of Iraq's insurgents during a Pentagon briefing. "And where they are right now is where they were almost a year ago."
I saw that earlier. Hope 1 year from now this isn't accurate.
Yes. Undiminished. Still fighting and causing mayhem, still managing to make a total failure of itself.

It has failed to accomplish a single one of it's goals.
That's true,but they have the very good fortune of not having to win anything. They have only to exist long term to succeed.

On the other side of this equation,it appears to me that the FRENZY of murder ongoing right now by the terrorist side tells us that THEY see the Iraqi democracy as mortally dangerous to them and apparently as a foe that must be broken rather soon,based on the frenzied level of car bombings.

My take is Iraq DA.MN SURE is a quagmire and where Al Qaeda's dreams will die,but it is going to cost a lot of good people's lives to do it as always is the case. They are sending as much cannon fodder as they can into the nation as fast as they can and does ANYONE here honestly believe either the Americans or the Iraqis are going to give up and say,"Yea, Abu Musab Zarqawi,you go ahead and have an oil wealthy Iraq as your new base of jihad,we're heading home."

Does anyone think that's a possibility? I don't,not even if Kerry had been elected.
Indeed, lots of people die in wars.

However look at the sheer facts of it. The Insurgency has accomplished nothing, and even the Iraqi people, the ones who were supposed to rise up and aid them, hate them now.

The United States: Eleven years of peaceful negotiations to get a constitution

Iraq: Two and a half years of wartime to have a working government.
Algeria has had a civil war for over 10 years that has cost ~1 million dead, Iraq will be no different I fear. Hopefully less deaths.
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