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I wonder what Ron has to say, who celebrated that girls in Afghanistan can go to school again, and I wonder what exactly they are studying there. Or Akhenaten might want to hail again the liberties the invasion of Afghanistan brought to the people.

Courtesy of the Jewish press:http://www.maravot.com/Maravot_News02.05.08.html
Quote:A young man, a student of journalism, is sentenced to death by an Islamic court for downloading a report from the internet. The sentence is then upheld by the country's rulers. This is Afghanistan – not in Taliban times but six years after "liberation" and under the democratic rule of the West's ally Hamid Karzai.

The fate of Sayed Pervez Kambaksh has led to domestic and international protests, and deepening concern about erosion of civil liberties in Afghanistan. He was accused of blasphemy after he downloaded a report from a Farsi website which stated that Muslim fundamentalists who claimed the Koran justified the oppression of women had misrepresented the views of the prophet Mohamed.

Mr. Kambaksh, 23, distributed the tract to fellow students and teachers at Balkh University with the aim, he said, of provoking a debate on the matter. But a complaint was made against him and he was arrested, tried by religious judges without – say his friends and family – being allowed legal representation and sentenced to death. The Independent is launching a campaign today to secure justice for Mr. Kambaksh.

[url]A young man, a student of journalism, is sentenced to death by an Islamic court for downloading a report from the internet. The sentence is then upheld by the country's rulers. This is Afghanistan – not in Taliban times but six years after "liberation" and under the democratic rule of the West's ally Hamid Karzai.

The fate of Sayed Pervez Kambaksh has led to domestic and international protests, and deepening concern about erosion of civil liberties in Afghanistan. He was accused of blasphemy after he downloaded a report from a Farsi website which stated that Muslim fundamentalists who claimed the Koran justified the oppression of women had misrepresented the views of the prophet Mohamed.

Mr. Kambaksh, 23, distributed the tract to fellow students and teachers at Balkh University with the aim, he said, of provoking a debate on the matter. But a complaint was made against him and he was arrested, tried by religious judges without – say his friends and family – being allowed legal representation and sentenced to death. The Independent is launching a campaign today to secure justice for Mr. Kambaksh.[/quote][/url]A young man, a student of journalism, is sentenced to death by an Islamic court for downloading a report from the internet. The sentence is then upheld by the country's rulers. This is Afghanistan – not in Taliban times but six years after "liberation" and under the democratic rule of the West's ally Hamid Karzai.

The fate of Sayed Pervez Kambaksh has led to domestic and international protests, and deepening concern about erosion of civil liberties in Afghanistan. He was accused of blasphemy after he downloaded a report from a Farsi website which stated that Muslim fundamentalists who claimed the Koran justified the oppression of women had misrepresented the views of the prophet Mohamed.

Mr. Kambaksh, 23, distributed the tract to fellow students and teachers at Balkh University with the aim, he said, of provoking a debate on the matter. But a complaint was made against him and he was arrested, tried by religious judges without – say his friends and family – being allowed legal representation and sentenced to death. The Independent is launching a campaign today to secure justice for Mr. Kambaksh.
A young man, a student of journalism, is sentenced to death by an Islamic court for downloading a report from the internet. The sentence is then upheld by the country's rulers. This is Afghanistan – not in Taliban times but six years after "liberation" and under the democratic rule of the West's ally Hamid Karzai.

The fate of Sayed Pervez Kambaksh has led to domestic and international protests, and deepening concern about erosion of civil liberties in Afghanistan. He was accused of blasphemy after he downloaded a report from a Farsi website which stated that Muslim fundamentalists who claimed the Koran justified the oppression of women had misrepresented the views of the prophet Mohamed.

Mr. Kambaksh, 23, distributed the tract to fellow students and teachers at Balkh University with the aim, he said, of provoking a debate on the matter. But a complaint was made against him and he was arrested, tried by religious judges without – say his friends and family – being allowed legal representation and sentenced to death. The Independent is launching a campaign today to secure justice for Mr. Kambaksh.
[/quote]
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,394522,00.html
Quote:An Afghan journalist who printed a translation of the Koran in a Persian dialect is on trial for blasphemy and could face the death penalty if convicted. But with threats from various powerful groups, he could face the same fate even if acquitted.

Ghaws Zalmay was arrested last November trying to flee to Pakistan after Afghanistan’s Senate backed a group of powerful Sunni clerics who were calling for his arrest. He was scheduled to have a third hearing in a Kabul court on Wednesday.

Zalmay, who was a spokesman for the Attorney General and head of Afghanistan's Journalists' Union at the time of his arrest, was charged with 13 counts of blasphemy. He is accused of having "written his own Koran" in Dari, one of Afghanistan's official languages. His two brothers and a friend were imprisoned, too, charged with helping him flee.

Following Zalmay's arrest, there were demonstrations and calls for his death, including from former Prime Minister Ahmadshah Ahmadzai, a warlord and opponent to President Hamid Karzai in the 2004 presidential elections.

Now, as Afghanistan struggles with its nascent judicial system, Zalmay’s case — and others like his — are putting the country’s experiment with democracy to the test.
...
Despite the appearence, nobody should expect these retards to change overnight.
Fred,

I'd be even more pessimistic. I wouldn't expect them to change in 3000 years. One never knows,but,they seem unchanged since Alexander's troopers were there and I'm not joking.

There's an interesting "historic fiction" work by Steven Pressfield called "The Afghan Campaign". Eerily similar to today reading of Afghans back then.

They are just so xenophobic,any idea that isn't native cannot be acceptable. We liberated them from the Taliban,but,truthfully I think everyone involved is extremely pessimistic about much happening there positively. I'm about convinced we're going to walk away from the place shortly and I am not sure it will be an error to do so.
Honestly, I think they just hasn't had that one major screw up that they couldn't blame on others yet.

It seems that, historically, every other religions in certain areas always had at least one screw up that happened from their own mistakes to make them realize that they were heading off in the wrong direction.

The Christians had their share of screw ups such as Selling Salvation in the Middle Ages. While this did reflect how easily corrupted religion could become, it did serve as an wake-up call to Christians. For instance once they learned that God didn't care much about wealth, status or power and it was just the corrupt priests who preached about this sort of thing... they could then focus on bettering themselves instead of feeling that just because they were rich or poor, that it could somehow affect their status in the afterlife.

There was also many other incidents, some being more worse than just selling salvation. But in turn, they also served to teach us that abusing or even misusing religion can have dire consequences. once the lesson is learned, we become better men and women for it, even if it had consequences that we would rather not happen in the first place.

or at least I'd like to think so.

In fact didn't Christians hold the notion once that women wasn't meant to be seen and heard? That they were supposed to just blindly obey their husbands, and that it was also acceptable to hit them just once to punish them if they didn't do that? In fact, there was some reports of a marital rape "epidemic" around the year 1600's that occurred because of misinterpretation of bible verses about women subjugating themselves to their husbands. (Ephesians chapter 5).

of course, over the years this sort of viewpoint "relaxed" and became "flexible" when they realized that those verses weren't just about women being property of men, but about the women being by the men's side WILLINGLY. And that Women also had a important role with God just as much as Men did.
And this was all before Women's rights and liberation movement, even if that did help too later on.

Buddhists also went though a simlar thing, and so did The Jewish religion, and so on.

I think the Muslims just need to go though something like this in order to learn that there IS such a thing as misinterpretation of holy verses, and realizing that they might need to re-study the whole thing in order to better themselves not only spiritually, but bettering themselves in terms of personal freedoms for not only themselves, but for their women too.
Test your own faith, and your faith becomes stronger for it.
AM,

Afghans are not so affected by Islam as much as one might imagine,it's simply the latest fad of theirs,IMO. They would be xenophobic goofs if they still worshipped the moon.

What we consider today this "neanderthal" thinking in certain areas may be justified using their version of Islam,but,I honestly think they are not much changed from millenia before Islam was invented.

There never has been much enlightenment there,it's one of those areas that seems to have almost always been bereft of much,wealth,education,etc. Xenophobia is a bad thing,they appear to have been maxed out from it forever.

Like Kamil pointed out above,Turks are Muslims and reasonably not so different from us in many respects. I've never been to a Muslim state,but,I bet you could see differences in each,my kid was in Dubai and felt like he was in NYC. Prostitutes from all areas walking in malls next to conservatively dressed Muslim women.
Q Wrote:Or Akhenaten might want to hail again the liberties the invasion of Afghanistan brought to the people.

We're not there to establish the status quo of the West. I never claimed that. In fact few have claimed it.

How come you're never here to post a story about taliban burning down schools because they don't think girls should attend, even if Afghans do want their girls to attend? This is the 'liberty' being returned: their liberty. This is the status quo being returned: their status quo.

Seriously: how come you're never here to post the crimes commited by the Taliban Q? Are you working for some kind of agenda? lol.

Heck even in SWAT/Pakistan they want their girls to attend school and there's no law forbidding it yet they have to attend under fear of violence from the Taliban every day. So you tell me who's acting in Afghan's interest in terms of 'liberation' (i.e. the right to live as you see fit)? The taliban who want to change it completely or the West who is simply restoring it -- even if it isn't "just like us".

Diary of a Pakistani schoolgirl



Ahk
Quote:Two Taliban Are Killed in Revenge by Afghans

KABUL, Afghanistan — On Saturday, something typical happened in eastern Afghanistan: Two Taliban guerrillas assassinated a top local politician.

But on Sunday, something very unusual occurred, according to witnesses and Afghan intelligence officials.

Hundreds of people from around the district of Dara-e-Noor joined with the local police to corner the Taliban assassins. A firefight broke out. Eventually the wounded Taliban were captured. But instead of turning them over to the authorities, the villagers trussed the men to a tree and punched and kicked them to death.

Revenge killings are not unusual in Afghanistan; when the Taliban executed murder suspects in Kabul before the American invasion, they would shout, “In revenge, there is life!”

But such killings against the feared Taliban are relatively rare. The episode in Dara-e-Noor represented an uncommon response from local villagers, one motivated at least in part by an angry fear that Afghanistan’s deeply corrupt judicial system would turn the killers loose.

The mob dragged the wounded assassins away from their hideout and made quick work of them, Hassan Khan, a local tribal elder, said in a telephone interview. “The people punched them with their fists and kicked them with their legs and whatever they had in their hand” until they were dead, he said.

“The people were very angry and upset because of the atrocious actions” of the killers, Mr. Khan said. “So when people get angry, no one can stop them.”

Conditions may have been ripe for such an unusual reprisal, some in the community said. The politician who was assassinated, Qazi Khan Mohammed, the secretary of the Nangarhar Provincial Council, was a highly respected local leader. And the region around Dara-e-Noor has always been home to people loyal to a powerful anti-Taliban commander named Hazrat Ali.

Moreover, it was not only villagers who appeared to rejoice in the killing of the assassins. The Afghan intelligence service issued a statement on Sunday that almost seemed to endorse the revenge killing, which, however popular in Dara-e-Noor, was contrary to the rule of Afghan law.

“Such action, and the rapid decision by people against the criminals, shows the hatred and anger against the Taliban and terrorists,” the statement said. (Its account also varied slightly from that of the villagers and the police, saying that one attacker was killed by the provincial secretary’s bodyguards on Saturday and that the other assassin was arrested but then killed on the orders of tribal elders.)

It may not have been such a surprise that the Afghan intelligence service would highlight an illegal, extrajudicial killing. Three months ago the head of the service, Amrullah Saleh, appeared on national television and criticized the judicial system as freeing kidnappers and other criminals.

While local vigilantes had the upper hand in Dara-e-Noor, the Taliban claimed responsibility for a deadly attack at the other end of Afghanistan, in restive, opium-dominated Helmand Province.

There, two American servicemen were killed Sunday by a two-stage roadside bomb, according to the provincial governor’s spokesman. He said the Taliban had structured the bomb in such a way as to make whoever defused the smaller charge on top of the device think the danger had passed.

In reality, said the governor’s spokesman, Dawood Ahmadi, a much larger explosive was hidden beneath. As the men tinkered with what they believed was an already defused bomb, the much larger bomb on the bottom exploded, killing the two Americans, both advisers to the Afghan police, Mr. Ahmadi said. An Afghan policeman was also killed, while an interpreter and two other police officers — one of them the acting district chief — were wounded, he said.

Qari Yousuf Ahmadi, a Taliban spokesman, said the Taliban were behind the blast, which he described as a trick device. “We will carry out more attacks against NATO and Afghan forces all over Afghanistan in the future,” he said.

An American military statement said only that “two coalition service members” were killed in the blast, along with an Afghan national policeman and an Afghan civilian.

Abdul Waheed Wafa contributed reporting from Kabul, and Taimoor Shah from Kandahar, Afghanistan.

People will only put up with so much crap before they retaliate.
Aurora Moon

You are too dark in your view of the Middle Age in Europe. It was very far from current backwardness in Afghanistan and in Taliban minds.

During the Renaissance, when Savonarol tried to do his reform Taliban-style (IMO the closest point to Talibanism in the whole History of Christianity), he ended roosted and life continued as normal.

You should read more about daily life and the life of women in the Middle Ages. Of course women job was mostly restricted to the kitchen but that was more for survival reasons than moral ones. It took slightly more time to prepare food at this time than it take today to unfreeze a pizza in the microwave.
Most of the time our ancestors live a no-nonsens life with normal relationships as much as practicable.

The Middle Age has never been agressive against girls attending schools. But schools was such a luxury that only girls from very rich families could afford.

IMO, modern ideas came thanks to improvement in the way of life and in the methods of production. If 50% of the women in the middle age had refused any other job than office ones with a salary on par with men, I think the human specie would be extinct by now.
Today, modern technology allow men and wmoen alike to have a usuful role in the production process.

The normal afghan live somewhat like we lived in the Middle Ages, but they also get in contact with the modern world and understand that education for women is also important.
Talibanism is in opposition to progress and see any such progress as unislamic.

In the Middle Age we were also prejudiceable against women, we were also full into religion and traditions, but we didn't have the whole world around us swimming in the electronic age and in sex equality.
We didn't have the Red Cross or Doctors Without Borders to help us.
Nor the hinderance of certain sections of our culture.....
Ahkenaten Wrote:Seriously: how come you're never here to post the crimes commited by the Taliban Q? Are you working for some kind of agenda? lol.
Yes. To explain to every naive person that there is one conflict at the heart of everything in this world, that's the rich vs the have-nots. Everything else, such as communists vs fascists, liberals vs conservatives, christians vs muslims, sunny vs shia, is being created by the rich to mask, and distract from that one and only conflict.

Nothing has changed for the Afghans. Who claimes otherwise, lies. To better their lifes was not the object of the invasion, nor a byproduct. To end terrorism there was not the object of the invasion, nor a byproduct.
Quote: Who claimes otherwise, lies

oh well i guess they're lying then.

i don't know who think you're fooling Q. You're the guy who didn't know the difference between Mujihadeen and Taliban, you didn't know the ISI existed or that Pakistan had anything to do with this conflict, and you thought 'opium licensing' was something coffee shops in Amsterdam needed to remain open. You thought the 'hudood ordinance' was what you called ammunition when you're in 'da 'hood'. You didn't know any of this stuff until I enlightened you.

Every single piece of quality information you have about Afghanistan and the conflict there you got from ME right here on this forum. Yes you did. Everything else you think you know is day-dream nonsense and wishful thinking.
You ought to be paying me for this education, but instead you're going to sit there and 'explain it all' to us. lol. At least I can take comfort in the knowledge you'll never be given a position of responsibility in this life.

Quote:Nothing has changed for the Afghans.

How can you say that when you know absolutely nothing about the two different times in Afghans history to compare? Yes. Canadian soldiers show up to villages every day to cane or hang young men without beards that reach conditional length. Yes you're sooo right Q, keep telling yourself that instead of picking up a book once in a while.



Ahk
One factor we have to keep in mind about the way women were regarded in the Middle Ages was the high rate of mortality in women giving birth. More than one out of five women died in childbirth. That had a psychological impact on men, since virtually all of them knew a woman who died in childbirth. The most common reaction, was to believe women were not as important, not as "human," as men, so their death did not matter as much. This was not rational or in harmony with any religion; it was a coping mechanism. The alternative was to cease reproducing.

It has only been in modern times, when women very seldom die in childbirth, that men in general could afford psychologically to regard women as equals.
Ron, I don't agree with that (unless of course this opinion is based on things I don't know).

To the contrary I think the reaction of the men would be to offer increased protection to women. No man like to see his whife dying, generaly.
Also men were dying in equal if not higher proportions, at war and/or at work.

IMO, what we too ften ignore is the much higher importance of physical labor and physical ability to fight than today.
And that it's the reason why women were seen as inferior.

Today nobody care if you can climb a mountain like on the inspirational poster, but we ask you to have a degree, something that women can do as well as men.
Actually, I do care that you can climb a mountain, it means you have strength, not just outer, but inner strength and determination in reaching yor goals. Not everyone has the daring to scale K2 or Everet dammit. It means you're a winner.

Whereas any fool can get a degree these days. Having a degree isn't saying much.

But hey, we'll dumb down what climbing that mountain represents so somebody doesn't haven't a hurt ego because they lack what it takes to do such things.

Substitute mtn. climbing for soldiering, exploring, creating huge multi-million dollar corp. from nothing, etc.

But I guess a degree is more important.