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Full Version: It's getting Warmer, errr Colder, Out There
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Euroland is colder today, as a result of the lack of Russian natural gas shipments. Looks like a REAL Cold War is going on here.

Will this be the final push to get the Euros to actually do something, other than use harsh rhetoric and hand wringing.

And remember, the planet is cooling down too.
The FT had a article on its op ed page today which said essentially the following.

The natgas used to originate in the Ukraine, that's why the pipelines are there. Later, the Russians shipped gas to Europe through these pipelines, allowing the Ukraine to take 20% as a fee for the Russian use of Ukraine pipelines. Recently, Putin has been letting some oligarchs in on the sweet natgas deal, and thus is putting pressure on the Ukraine to pay for the gas it takes from the pipelines evidently being rented to Russia.

Maybe I misread it, but it would explain some of the stupidity of the Russian's cutting off gas in winter.

LINK
THE Money Quote IS:

Quote: It suggests how little the rule of law and principles of accountability have penetrated public life in each country. And also, compared with the power of competing factions, how overstated is the strongman reputation of Mr Putin, Russia’s prime minister.

privitization would have solved this problem. Instead you have Fascist governments fighing a 'turf' war, and Russia will win only if it actually takes Ukraine again. But that is thinking tactics, when strategy is the important thing.

Privitize the industry.
Russians just employed a new secret meteorologic weapon. I have seen one when I was picking mushrooms in the woods. It's a massive electromagnetic field reactor on the tower about 50 m high. My watch stopped and compass went mad. I shat and almost lost my bearings. The appearence of polygon was so sudden view. S5

As for gas cut-off, there couldn't be more solid reason - Ukraine didn't pay the bill for 2008 in full. She owes money to Gazprom. This simple.
jt Wrote:The natgas used to originate in the Ukraine, that's why the pipelines are there.

Really?S2

jt Wrote:Later, the Russians shipped gas to Europe through these pipelines, allowing the Ukraine to take 20% as a fee for the Russian use of Ukraine pipelines.

Yup, 15 years ago... Last 5 years there are two separate contracts about gas for Ukraine and about transit gas

Read better original article, it's more or less accurate. Your american media are too specific...
Quote:Gazprom stopped pumping gas to Ukraine for domestic consumption on 1 January after the two countries failed to agree on a fixed price for 2009.

And Ukraine start to steal transit gas. It happen's every year. This year they steal 100%. Russia use independant audit company on own gas stations to fix what happened, Ukraine refused to do it...
jt Wrote:The FT had a article on its op ed page today which said essentially the following.

The natgas used to originate in the Ukraine, that's why the pipelines are there. Later, the Russians shipped gas to Europe through these pipelines, allowing the Ukraine to take 20% as a fee for the Russian use of Ukraine pipelines. Recently, Putin has been letting some oligarchs in on the sweet natgas deal, and thus is putting pressure on the Ukraine to pay for the gas it takes from the pipelines evidently being rented to Russia.

Maybe I misread it, but it would explain some of the stupidity of the Russian's cutting off gas in winter.

LINK
Oh Geez. We build this very pipeline from Siberia to Schwedt in East Germany in the eigthies, including the whole part through the Ukraine. End of last year the Russians claimed the Ukraine was behind on paying their gas bills, and unless the honoured the deadline, the Russians would cut the gas for the Ukraine. Ukraine didn't pay but increased the transit fare for gas to Europe by 600% (thereby increasing our price). Russia cut off, and Ukraine started to siphon off, to steal transit gas for Europe. More evidence Ukraine is no part of the West, and the Baltic pipeline which crosses no other countries, a very good idea.
Quote:The natgas used to originate in the Ukraine

That was before the continents separated, Ukraine was a province of Pandea back then.....

Quote:End of last year the Russians claimed the Ukraine was behind on paying their gas bills, and unless the honoured the deadline, the Russians would cut the gas for the Ukraine.

My understanding is that they cannot reach an agreement on the price for this year gas. Evil Russkies insist that the Ukranians should pay the same price as the European customers...Democratic Ukranians believe that there is no need to pay for something that can be siphoned for free.

Transit fees are separate....but I doubt they amount to 20%. (Several other European countries also get transit fees from the same system.)

I believe that most of Western European customers have about one month worth of supplies, so there is no immediate crisis.

Quote:Maybe I misread it, but it would explain some of the stupidity of the Russian's cutting off gas in winter.

It is hard to say if the move was stupid or not. Generally, one should lock their doors when dealing with thieves (and Yushenko actions amount to the thievery), but it is not clear if this extra crisis in relations with Europe is helpful to Putin.

Ukraine certainly cannot afford paying unsubsidized price. Thus, only two outcomes are possible: (1) West increases already huge aid to Ukraine to pay the bills...this means Junior throws out many more billions of dollars (2) Ukranian government is replaced by one that Putin likes so much that he is willing to take losses.
mv Wrote:Evil Russkies insist that the Ukranians should pay the same price as the European customers...Democratic Ukranians believe that there is no need to pay for something that can be siphoned for free.
Actually Gazprom demanded only 50% of european price in december - 250Euro to prevent problems. Today when problems already happened they demand 100%.
But it's not the most interesting. Read better:


Kiev court
Quote:Kiev court prohibits gas transit from Russia

The Fuel and Energy Ministry of Ukraine filed a lawsuit to a Kiev court seeking to consider the existing gas transit agreements with Russia until 2010 void, the ministry’s press office told RBC.

The reason for declaring these agreements void was that they were signed by ex-Deputy CEO of Naftogaz of Ukraine Igor Voronin, who didn’t possess of the necessary power of attorney from the Ukrainian cabinet.

As a result, the Kiev court has made a ruling prohibiting Russian natural gas transit via Ukraine by Naftogaz of Ukraine at $1.6 per 1,000 cubic meters per 100 km in 2009.

The investigation into the case was scheduled for January 9, 2009.

No official statement on the matter has been made by Gazprom so far.

So? Who stopped transit?
Interesting.

Perhaps this is the Ukrainian way of blackmailing West for a NATO invitation? Good old Makhno traditions....

(Accordingly to Stratfor, the asking price was $420, which seems to be about what the Europeans pay.)
mv Wrote:Interesting.

Perhaps this is the Ukrainian way of blackmailing West for a NATO invitation? Good old Makhno traditions....

(Accordingly to Stratfor, the asking price was $420, which seems to be about what the Europeans pay.)
Today 420$.
А. ВОРОБЬЕВ - Я вам напомню, Валентин, что логика Алексея Миллера, главы «Газпрома», когда он называл сумму 450 долларов за тысячу кубометров, была следующей. Вам предлагали цену 250 долларов за тысячу кубометров. Это была льготная цена, и вы отказались и вышли из переговорного процесса. Первого числа вам предложили 418, среднеевропейскую цену за тысячу кубометров, но и это не вынудило вас сесть немедленно за стол переговоров. Потом вам назвали 450, и будто бы только это могло охладить ваш пыл и вернуть за стол консультаций.
mv Wrote:
Quote:End of last year the Russians claimed the Ukraine was behind on paying their gas bills, and unless the honoured the deadline, the Russians would cut the gas for the Ukraine.

My understanding is that they cannot reach an agreement on the price for this year gas. Evil Russkies insist that the Ukranians should pay the same price as the European customers... Democratic Ukranians believe that there is no need to pay for something that can be siphoned for free.

Transit fees are separate....but I doubt they amount to 20%. (Several other European countries also get transit fees from the same system.)

I believe that most of Western European customers have about one month worth of supplies, so there is no immediate crisis.
Well, behind on the payments, and they also didn't want to pay more in the new year, so they increased transit fees as compensation.

Germany has very large gas stores, good for three months unconfined delivery. Bulgaria however is already cold. The other nations somewhere in between.