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Turkey following demands of the EU started a Kurdish speaking TV channel for the first time ever yesterday, lifting a decades old ban. Did you know they went so far in suppressing Kurdish culture? I think not, a nugget of information not spread by our mainstream medias. The PKK might have a strong point.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?fil...rldupdates

I gonna look up what this is like in the South of Thailand, probably similar. The cultural idendity of the Malayan minority is to be erased, and that caused the insurgency. Meanwhile, the tool of choice to silence and kill opposition in Thailand is lese majeste, and that's generously interpreted. Not only every unfavourable word about, let alone criticism of their beloved majesties the kind and queen, but also criticism of the higher echelons of the military are regarded as lese majeste. The old elite has won the recent battle, and now they're going after the opposition. Here a collection of articles,

http://www.bangkokpost.com/search (then type 'lese majeste' into the search box and klick 'go'.

One I found quite funny,
Quote:A group opposing corruption based in Khon Kaen has filed a complaint against four key leaders of the United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), accusing them of insulting the royal institution. Tul Prasertsil, chairman of the Anti-Corruption Network in Khon Kaen, and network secretary Chaichana Tassaniyom asked local police to take action against four UDD leaders _ Veera Musikhapong, Jakrapob Penkair, Natthawut Saikua and Jatuporn Promphan _ for placing a picture of Their Majesties the King and Queen alongside an offensive slogan.

The picture was seen next to a slogan reading ''Privileged People...Thief'' in the background on the UDD's rally site outside Parliament on Monday when thousands of UDD supporters staged a rally against the government.

Mr Tul said the four UDD leaders must be held responsible for the group's action, which was deemed offensive to the royal institution. Such an action constituted an act of lese majeste under article 112 of the Criminal Code, he said. He also called on the public to protect the royal institution.
I wonder if the picture of their majesties the king and queen were anywhere near the offensive slogan seen from a different angle.

Things like that were unknown in the communist countries of Europe, but are evidently quite common in the so called democratic nations.
If you would bother to stop your 'drive-by' mode and actually READ some of the posts/threads, you would know that most of us are entirely up to speed on the Kurdish issue already.
Kurds in Turkey use five different dialects. Most of these dialects are as much different from each other as the difference is between English and German. In Turkey minorities and any foreign government can open High Schools and Universities teaching in their own languages. We have Greek, Armenian, French, English, Austrian, German High Schools and two American Colleges and one High School.
Turkish Government does not fund these schools, and their expenses are covered by the tuition fees. About ten years ago, Kurds also opened several private schools, but due to low attendance and no interest they closed down within a few years. I don't think any nation could be asked to run schools in minority languages and expect government to pay for it.
For example, I won't expect USA Government to finance schools by taxpayers’ money for teaching in languages of all the minorities living there.
As far as the Kurdish TV goes, there are many Kurdish TV stations in N. Iraq. These TV stations could be received in Turkey, but their popularity is very low in the Eastern Turkey. I think the audience of Kurdish TV broadcasting from Turkey is going to be very low, and won't be able to support itself without Government aid.
Kamil, your knowledge of such situations is always very much appreciated. The light of facts clarifies much.
You think so? I can read the feeble excuse "The Kurds don't want a cultural independence themselves" as justification for their suppression all over the place, what the very existence of the PKK evidently disproves. To put it straight, Turkey prohibited any, state and privately financed TV in Kurdish language. (Gonna look up how it was with papers.) I understood that from the establishment of the country Turkey (1922?) till about 1998, any private Kurdish schools were prohibited?
As far as I know almost any government financed school in any country, including the U.S. teaches foreign languages, I guess Spanish is quite popular in America. And you're saying to speak the native language Kurdish at a school in the Kurdish parts of Turkey is prohibited? And you seriously want to join Europe?
I have NO sympathy for Kurds or anyone else in any nation(including Serbs in Croatia,Albanians in Macedonia and Albanians in Serbia) who want the state to enforce their culture and/or language.

These Kurds are in Turkey,if they dislike Turk culture,LEAVE.

I don't tolerate such nonsense here and don't expect others to elsewhere.
Palladin Wrote:These Kurds are in Turkey,if they dislike Turk culture,LEAVE.
To Kurdistan?

Serbian and Croatian languages are in fact the same:
Serbo-Croatian language
Palladin Wrote:These Kurds are in Turkey,if they dislike Turk culture,LEAVE.

I don't tolerate such nonsense here and don't expect others to elsewhere.

strong statement, and a mighty strange too......

why should any nation leave the area they lived in for some thousand years?

why should any nation like culture of any other nation?

i fail to understand this....

Kamil Wrote:I don't think any nation could be asked to run schools in minority languages and expect government to pay for it.

Hmm....how about the US government (and thus our tax $'s). Not saying what the US does is right, but it is surely expected.
mv Wrote:why should any nation leave the area they lived in for some thousand years?
... in contrast to Turks.
mv Wrote:
Kamil Wrote:"]I don't think any nation could be asked to run schools in minority languages and expect government to pay for it.

Hmm....how about the US government (and thus our tax $'s). Not saying what the US does is right, but it is surely expected.

I have not seen any State run schools in the USA that teaches all their curriculums in foreign languages and English as the second language.
In Turkey we have several schools that teach their curriculum in foreign languages, but graduates of these schools have problems entering Turkish Universities, since all tests for University entrance are in Turkish.
My understanding is that such schools exist, at least for Spanish.

(This is the time we need Baldar around, he would know)
this is a stupid debate. America should be intelligent enough to learn multiple languages. why we strictly enforce English only is beyond me. our highschool required at least two years of a second language, but no one became fluent in them.
It's not s stupid debate. Here,we speak English,we do not fund native Indian dialects,nor do we promote them at public expense. In fact,our Indians no longer know them,which is appropriate. To insist Turks do so for Kurds is ridiculous. It's Turkey,they don't speak Kurd there.

Jews may speak Hebrew in Israel and Arabs Arabic in Arabia,but,those who immigrate here have no business insisting I pay taxes for their kids to learn Hebrew or Arabic . Same for all people.

Speaking various languages for international utility is a different issue than what the Kurds in Turkey demand(or Iraq,Syria or Persia for that matter).



As for the comment about Serbo-Croat being the same language,correct. The point was the Serbs there thought Krajina was Serbia and they learned better. Too bad the Albanians didn't learn better in Kosovo.

Where for Kurds to go? Wherever there is a nation that speaks Kurd I suppose. I don't know of one,I suggest they learn the language of the nations they live in or form one. Man up and form one or join the existing clubs.
Just a few clarifications
Kurds are related to Persians, their languages are considered to be the West Persian dialects. Most of the Sunni and Alevii Kurds immigrated to Turkey from Iran and Iraq after the 15th Century. They speak five different dialects of Persian language and cannot communicate with each other if they belong to different groups.
Even the Kurdish TV that is being broadcasted from Turkey uses three different dialects at different time slots, and in the future is planning to add two more Kurdish dialects to their broadcast.
What the Kurds want is to form Kurdistan,understandabl,for them,but,not for them to expect Turks to pay for or agree with it.
American dialect English is used by international pilots and all emergency agencies because it is the closest thing to a universally understood language. A person can choose not to learn English - but doing so bars that person from many things. As long as that person is willing to do that, then the burden is on his/her hands - not on the rest of the worrld that realizes that communication is a good thing.

In Europe, the Middle East, and other parochial places, there is a new language every dozen miles or so that separates the denizens from their neighbors. Their choice - not mine.
The Kurds must be a highly refractory and individualistic culture to have so many dialects that other Kurds cannot understand. If that is so, it diminishes my sympathy for their "plight" as people without a home, since the separatism would seem to be partly self imposed. Perhaps being fragmented in Turkey inhibits unification, but something else is missing.
Palladin Wrote:As for the comment about Serbo-Croat being the same language,correct. The point was the Serbs there thought Krajina was Serbia and they learned better. Too bad the Albanians didn't learn better in Kosovo.

Krajina was created in 1550 when fighting Ottomans.
Quote:The name Krajina was adopted from the Military Frontier that was carved out of parts of the crown lands of Croatia and Slavonia by Austria in 1553–1578 as a means of defending against the expansion of the Ottoman Empire. Many Croats, Serbs and Vlachs immigrated from nearby parts of Ottoman Empire (Ottoman Bosnia and Serbia) into the region and helped bolster and replenish the numbers of Croats as well as the garrisoned German troops in the fight against the Ottomans.
Ottomans "liberated" Bizanthium 50 years before.
Why existance of Turkey is legal, but Krajina is illegal?

Quote:The abolition of the military rule took place between 1869 and 1871. In order to attract Serbs to be part of Croatia on 11.5.1867 the Sabor solemnly declared that "the Triune Kingdom recognizes the Serbian/Vlach people living in it as a nation identical and equal with the Croatian nation." After that, the Military Frontier was reincorporated in Croatia in 1881.
So, Serbs aren't occupants like Turks.
BTW It's extra reminding - roots of all national problems on Balkans (and not on Balkans only) are Turkish...
BH,

Krajina is not Serbia,we know this now don't we? It was seen by the international community as Croatia,force of arms proved it later. 1590 doesn't mean much today,yea,I realize what you said is accurate though.

Turkey's borders are recognized by all,force of arms has proven them to be valid.

I don't dislike Kurds,but,I do dislike revolutionaries. All these people,Chechens included,need to stop being sore losers and move forward. We Americans wouldn't tolerate native Indians lobbing rockets into our cities,yet some of us insist the Jews allow it in Israel.

Ottoman problems? Sure,you think there are not Russia or American caused human problems due to our history? Of course there are,but,I don't have the right to murder your family,nor you mine. Not if we have any morality. Turkey is an old nation by now.

There will be new nations someday,if they are strong enough to forge a state,the losers do not then have the right interminably to murder people in retaliation,the world would never rest with people like that.
this seems to be the ideology of "all the current borders are valid and just, as long as there is a sufficient force to maintain them".

This is actually consistent, and perhaps the best approach.

Of course, if the Kurds somehow manage to carve out a state, this would be instantly just too; or if the Mexicans overrun California and can keep it, this will be no less just.

let's revisit the question when this happens. Wink1
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