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ghoullio Wrote:
mv Wrote:It will not be the first time either.... In essense, the US created AQ and Saddam to deal with other threats, more serious at the time (USSR and Iran). PLO was the main Israeli enemy at the time.

your knowledge of history is quite deficient, MV. we did not "create" Sadaam, who was a member of a communist party in Iraq. we also did not create AQ. we had a very small part in supplying Mujahadeen in Afghanistan with ground-to-air missles, but that is all.

It depends on what you mean by 'create'. We gave him the financial support, trade, and weapons he needed to rule Iraq and to hold his own against Iran.
ghoullio Wrote:
mv Wrote:It will not be the first time either.... In essense, the US created AQ and Saddam to deal with other threats, more serious at the time (USSR and Iran). PLO was the main Israeli enemy at the time.

your knowledge of history is quite deficient, MV. we did not "create" Sadaam, who was a member of a communist party in Iraq. we also did not create AQ. we had a very small part in supplying Mujahadeen in Afghanistan with ground-to-air missles, but that is all.

It depends on what you mean by 'create'. We gave him the financial support, trade, and weapons he needed to rule Iraq and to hold his own against Iran.
Yeah, I'd go with "enabled" rather than "created".
But we really had no choice in the matter, given the nature of the world economy and our interests in the region.
Enabled is acceptable too, but i do prefer 'created': without our support both would have stayed minor phenomena.

Of course, supporting these movements made some sense, and in fact I argued before that supporting Saddam was a smarter policy in 2003 than executing him.

Ghoullio, you should not interpret Saddam's executions of Iraqi communists as his membership in the party. For your convenience, from wiki:

Quote:Provided with information by the CIA, the Baath Party hunted down suspected communists. They then jailed, interrogated, and summarily gunned them down. Many suspected communists were killed outright.[1] An exact toll is not known, but accounts indicate that among the victims were hundreds of doctors, teachers, technicians, lawyers, and other professionals. These numbers also include military and political figures. Saddam Hussein himself was said to have participated in the killings.
Here's a map of the West Bank. Did you believe it belongs to the Palestinians? Think again. All coloured areas are Jewish settlements, out of bounds for Palestinians. More than 500,000 Jews so far helped themselves to Palestinian land.

[Image: 250px-Settlements2006.jpg]
MV,

You cannot be serious. After watching since 2003,is it not obvious we barely knew where Baghdad was,how is it we knew communist party officials the Iraqis themselves did not know? The CIA knows Iraq's society better than the Iraqis knew it?????? In 1979? We still don't know it better than them. This is conspiracy theory nonsense and it isn't even logical. This wiki thing is silly,the last 5 years prove it is.


We have impirical evidence of a few things.

1)The United States knew Hussein's name and that's about it.

2)We thought he had all these underground hideouts and body doubles,not 1 news story documenting such since 2003,we knew nothing

3)We didn't even know he had removed his entire WMD program from active ops.

I agree with your view we overblew the significance of Hussein,beyond that I don't think anyone can support the idea we're responsible for his takedown of Iraqi CCCP folks,that we armed him(would have been fine if we had,we did Stalin to an extent,but,we didn't),that we assisted him at all beyond satellite imagery.

In 2009,our CIA still doesn't know squat about thsese people. I'd say our Army knows,but the CIA and their Harvard operatives know what they want to know and always have,pre conceived notions. The CIA has never been good at anything,certainly in 1979 they didn't know specific members of Iraq's CCCP anymore than they knew what the heck was going on in Russia.

Our CIA is so bereft of intellect,they didn't know Khruschev denounced Stalin and that the Chinese split from the Moscow axis until 20 years later. During the Vietnam war,we still thought China and Russia were working with hands held.

Anon,

This idea of your's that we armed Iraq is entirely falacious,they still are not armed by the USA to much of an extent at all.

IRAN was armed by the United States before the Iraq-Iran war. They still fly our F-16s,Iraq never has. Iran's tanks are American made(pre M-1 versions),not Iraq's. Iranian soldiers trained in the USA,ask any soldier you know back then,we've never had any relationship with Iraq like that.

Any soldier knows you cannot substitutte an entire EQ inventory during a hot war, ask Tait to explain how hard it would be for him to fix a Soviet BMP instead of the Bradley.

The only assistance we gave Iraq was satellite imagery which very much assisted them.

Iraq has never owned an M-1 or an F-16. Only recently have they purchased M-16s. Their current new batch of tanks are old,re-furbished Uke T-72s. Why? Cause that's what the Iraqis always worked on and operated,it isn't so easy to transition,especially not in the middle of a war.

We gave Iraq access to our satelitte imagery,that helped them target the Iranian formations with arty. Very helpful to Iraq,the truth is if Iraq had been about to win,we would have offered the same help to Iran. We wanted them to kill each other off,we wanted the Russians and Germans to do the same thing in 1945. We haven't yet armed Iraq and we've been there since 2003,M-16 transitions have only started in the last year or so.
Palladin Wrote:MV,

You cannot be serious. After watching since 2003,is it not obvious we barely knew where Baghdad was,how is it we knew communist party officials the Iraqis themselves did not know? The CIA knows Iraq's society better than the Iraqis knew it?????? In 1979? We still don't know it better than them. This is conspiracy theory nonsense and it isn't even logical. This wiki thing is silly,the last 5 years prove it is.

nope, it is sufficiently correct. Saddam executed political opponents en masse in his early years; and among them communists were prominent; he preferred pro-Saddam leftists to pro-Moscow ones. Generally, victorious leftist parties are very intense on massacring their comrads in similar parties. (Incidentally, Nasser did the same to the communists in Egypt, Saddam merely copied him.). Now, CIA role in it I would not bet upon myself. CIA was certainly more informed before Saddam consolidated the regime, but assisting in locating local opponents? -- you do this with locals. Anyway, I'm not making any claims as for the exact CIA role, the quote was provided only to attest to Saddam's treatment of communists, CIA might have been added by the usual culprits.

Quote:We have impirical evidence of a few things.

1)The United States knew Hussein's name and that's about it. ...

That Bushist/Ricist regime did not suffer from excessive intellect is not in doubt.
MV,

I know the baath history with their opponents,my contention is simply they knew and did this,not the CIA telling them. Of course Nasser did it,too.
Nasser never was considered an ally and if Saddam had not invaded Iran,we'd never have known his name largely and all this conpsiracy theory stuff wouldn't be existant,IMO.

I'm sure Bush doesn't suffer extra intellect,but,the CIA su.cked way before he was born. It never has been worth a da.mn,never. They succeeded in fooling people like some conservatives here that they were good,then the Church commisision cut their nuts off. That's a lie,it was never worth a nickel.

Allegedly,it's heyday was under IKE. Ike left office claiming the CIA had given him a "Legacy of ashes". The main operations manager ended up committing suicide,I assume from extreme guilt over the thousands of east European kids he dispatched to their deaths when a normal human would have known early on the Soviet side was waiting for each airdrop. He kept sending them in and getting them killed,then eventually committed suicide himself.

Honestly,what major fact did the CIA ever get right?
Concurring.

Sorry for CIA, it just happened to be in the paragraph I wanted to quote, nothing more.
Quad,

Olmert has a plan to remove all Israelis from the west bank. Already did so from Gaza. Let's assume he succeeds.

I predict if he does,more of the same,missles from the Arab side into Israel. What is your prediction?
Olmert is irrelevant. He is gone after the elections, even if his party wins.
a few shots from the Hamas graduation ceremony. Q, notice all the dead women and children:

[Image: 610x.jpg]
[Image: 610x.jpg]
[Image: 340x.jpg]
[Image: 610x.jpg]
[Image: 610x.jpg]

the good looking fellow in the last shot seems to have a bad cut on his hand...
Woot! They got owned.

Sorry, got to appreciate the results of a professional (despite conscription) mililtary at work.

As for massive Urban Warfare, it needs to happen, and no, despite having some AK-47s and RPG's in an urban setting, these guys are no match for a modern, professional military. Faulljah, Sadr City, etc.

10 terrorist whatevers, cannot stand up to 10 GI's or Israelis. There is no contest no matter what, period. There will be some casualties, (all you'll hear about is Israel's or ours), no doubt about that, but the death toll for those guys in the pictures above will be in the thousands. So I say Israel should go for it and quit playing around. These guys will only be die hards as long as nothing really happens. But when they get cleaned out, feelings change instantly. Sadr got good at calling a cease fire and running to Iran when he got all his militias ruined by US and Iraqi Forces.

MV, the picture you paint probably will happen. This is a time when we should just sell the Israelis bullets and let them to their own devices. Suppose the rest of the world should stfu and quit sucking Hamas off, we might get some peace over there.

Why can't we do that for once? Does anyone learn in this world?
Personally, I'd just as soon see ALL of them 'penciled in' for all time. And it has nothing to do with my Mother's Jewish heritage. It's just that they have no business passing their genes on to the next generation.

Obviously they are a genetic dead end, and deserve a permanent Darwin Award placement at the very top of the list. Wink1
mv Wrote:Olmert is irrelevant. He is gone after the elections, even if his party wins.
a few shots from the Hamas graduation ceremony. Q, notice all the dead women and children:

[Image: 610x.jpg]
[Image: 610x.jpg]
[Image: 340x.jpg]
[Image: 610x.jpg]
[Image: 610x.jpg]

the good looking fellow in the last shot seems to have a bad cut on his hand...
They're not Hamas. That's the graduates of their police academy.
The ban to post pictures of mutilated bodies is lifted, I see. Can contribute one of Jews in Auschwitz, bad cases of anorexia. We all want some fun, don't we?

[Image: auschwitz_bodies.jpg]

The grandsons of the beforementioned Jews with unbalanced diets killed a senior Hamas leader including his wives and nine children earlier today. Does that make you happy?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090102/ap_o...inians_263
quadrat Wrote:The grandsons of the beforementioned Jews with unbalanced diets killed a senior Hamas leader including his wives and nine children earlier today. Does that make you happy?

absolutely! i wish they could get to the rest of the leadership of Hamas as well. what kind of leader hides behind his women and children? why not send them off for safekeeping?

anywho. Q, your noble sense of modestly sure seems to come and go. you were the first to post the corpse of a little child. why do these pictures intimidate you so much so that you have to respond with a 60+ year old image of the holocaust? is it meant to raise everyone's anger? why post it? it makes no difference on the argument at hand...
Why was Bush not in this building?

[Image: wtc_burning_2.jpg]
your selective use of images is not backing up any of your arguments, Q. you are simply trolling.

i guess in rebuttal i could show videos of Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11 but how would that further this discussion?

put your big boy pants on and debate this like an adult or go find another thread to troll in.
quadrat Wrote:Why was Bush not in this building?

[Image: wtc_burning_2.jpg]

Probably for the same reason you were not "Q".
Actually, the Jews were dancing on 9/11 as well.

[Image: Dancing_jpg_jpg.jpg]

What did Rabbi Netanjahu say on the evening of 9/11?

"This is a very good day for Israel. We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq."
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