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quadrat Wrote:However, the humanitarian aid has to cross Israel, and Israel refused the crossing to Gaza. Exactly my point.
Well, your point is wrong. Israel did not refuse to administer aid.

But they did ram Cynthia McKinney's boat. Maybe they were trying to make her fall overboard to see if she would sink or float. S2
Don't forget McKinney's relief to the folks in Gaza, which was thwarted by the Zionists, but which will get through eventually.
Ken,

I agree with you on the Church/Israel/Chosen thing(maybe a nuance of difference,but basically agree) and I do not think the USA is obligated to arm or be an ally of Israel's(or anyone's,I don't make distinctions on that issue).


However,I do see Jews as I do all humanity,they have a right to a state as other people do,so I still feel anti zionism ends up being because of anti semitism honestly.

These Palestinian Arabs have had opportunities to prove they have good will and they never show any when the Israeli's aren't willing to fight,they send rockets and terrs all the time. The Jews did offer 1/2 of Palestine at the UN,so they've shown good will,IMO. Not to say they're angels,but,neither are we.

I would hate to be an Israeli,this situation seems impossible long term,but I think they have the same right to Palestine as the Arabs do,let the better man win. I don't mind the Arabs fighting ,but,not terrorism and when the Jews fight back,the Pals need to stop acting like hysterical bit.ches,they start each fight,live with the consequences or change.
Palladin Wrote:...However,I do see Jews as I do all humanity,they have a right to a state as other people do,so I still feel anti zionism ends up being because of anti semitism honestly. ...
That really opens Pandora's box. Does every ethenic or DNA related group "have a right to a state"? If so, the world would become infinitesimally divided. Hey, we Swedish-Scotch-German-Americans deserve a state too.

As I have read somewhere, the Jews are not ethnically pure, nor are the pure in the DNA sense. DNA studies have revealed many subgroups among Jews which were formed at quite different times in history out of quite different groups.
JT,

Well,let me re-phrase it this way.

"All ethnic groups who desire a state and CAN forge one out on their own can have it and none have more right to this EFFORT than any other".

I would say Kurds have the same right,but,they don't have the ability to have one where they live. They can try,but,so can the Arabs,Persians and Turks try and stop it.

The Jews got lucky(or not) because there was no nation in Palestine,just an outlying area of a dying empire.

To be honest,if I were a Jew,I'd keep my tail right here in the USA. I wouldn't do anything but make quick visits to Israel,it is not a tenable nation long term,IMO. Demographics seem to make this case,IMO.
Palladin Wrote:Ken,

I agree with you on the Church/Israel/Chosen thing(maybe a nuance of difference,but basically agree) and I do not think the USA is obligated to arm or be an ally of Israel's(or anyone's,I don't make distinctions on that issue).
I believe Israel will be used in the End Times, but this is the Church age.

I agree with you on a lot of what you said. Perhaps it's debatable, but I think there are some aspects of anti-Zionism that aren't anti-Semitic, especially when talking politically. For the most part, though, anti-Zionists are anti-Semites.
KenRI Wrote:
quadrat Wrote:However, the humanitarian aid has to cross Israel, and Israel refused the crossing to Gaza. Exactly my point.
Well, your point is wrong. Israel did not refuse to administer aid.

But they did ram Cynthia McKinney's boat. Maybe they were trying to make her fall overboard to see if she would sink or float. S2
It's what the free media say, not the Jewish agenda-driven of course. I wonder how many truckloads of goods might be needed for a city the size of Philadelphia? Coupla 10,000 per day? 33 per month seems a bit slim. Any idea why Israel refuses access to Gaza for foreign jounalists? What does Israel have to hide?

Quote:The ongoing air assault on Gaza by Israel is out of proportion to the threat posed by Hamas rockets fired into its territory and, moreover, it is unlikely to accomplish anything in terms of security for Israel. As has often been pointed out, even by Israeli journalists, the population density in Gaza makes the possibility of surgical strikes against Hamas nonexistent.

The United Nations estimated on Tuesday morning that around 320 people had been killed in the strikes to that point and that at least 62 of them were women and children. Many hundreds more have been injured. History shows that the number of civilian casualties in any military operation are often underestimated initially.

Hamas actions in bringing about the current situation are also indefensible. The militant organisation has fired hundreds of rockets into Israel since the expiration of a six-month ceasefire on Dec 19. These actions were undertaken with the knowledge that they would provoke a harsh response that would bring more suffering on the population of Gaza.

The ceasefire had been broken by both sides many times, but overall it did impose more security for both parties. Apparently the large-scale resumption of the rocket attacks by Hamas after the expiration was done in an effort to try to force Israel to make concessions for more favourable terms under a new ceasefire, an expectation that can only be called foolhardy. A ceasefire more favourable for the people of Gaza, which might have been possible if a dialogue had been attempted, seems a long way off at the present time.

That said, clearly a new arrangement which allows the free flow of essential goods into Gaza is long overdue. Only basic humanitarian items have been allowed in since Hamas took control of Gaza in June 2007, and virtually no exports permitted, paralysing the economy. Reduced fuel supplies and a lack of spare parts have also affected sewage treatment, waste collection, water supplies and medical facilities.

Though Israeli officials deny it, numerous aid agencies have said there is an ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza because of the blockade.

In the current situation where hospitals are overflowing, the lack of medical supplies is translating directly into loss of life.

The current assault may help Israel to re-establish its military reputation but it has lost far more.

Most of the victims of the air assault may be Hamas members who have chosen to live and die by the sword, but what Palestinians and the world will remember are broadcasts from international news organisations like the one which tells the story of five sisters, all children, from the Jabaliya refugee camp in the northern part of the Gaza Strip who were killed in an air strike.

No matter what happens, Hamas should not be allowed to claim any kind of victory either, even if it does have the support of most of the people of Gaza as it claims.

In calling for an immediate ceasefire, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was exactly right in his condemnation of both the Israeli government and Hamas. The only way out is if both sides begin negotiations in good faith. Unfortunately, as we go into the new year the signs indicate that more reactionary elements are still firmly in control.
[Image: 116911.jpg]
Northern Gaza, a father lifted the body of his 4-year-old during a funeral Monday for five children from the same family killed in an Israeli missile strike.

That's what Jews do, and have been doing for decades. This way they forfeited their right for a state of their own in the Near East.
Yeah, it's those G-d Damned Evil Joooos, isn't it "Q". How dare those little 'sub-humans' have the Gaul(pardon the pun) to actually take the fight to those sworn to destroy them.

They should be lying down, just as they did during WWII when those Teutonic Supermen showed the world how it was done.

Right "Q"?
quadrat Wrote:
KenRI Wrote:
quadrat Wrote:However, the humanitarian aid has to cross Israel, and Israel refused the crossing to Gaza. Exactly my point.
Well, your point is wrong. Israel did not refuse to administer aid.

But they did ram Cynthia McKinney's boat. Maybe they were trying to make her fall overboard to see if she would sink or float. S2
It's what the free media say, not the Jewish agenda-driven of course.

Silly me, of course it's that. I forgot that the Jooos are controlling the New World Order.
the guy carrying the dead child has a Nike hat.

never underestimate Israel's ability to defend itself and never underestimate the Pal's ability to set up fake photo ops for PR.

vicious cycle.

seriously, a Nike beanie? in Palestine?
ghoullio Wrote:never underestimate Israel's ability to defend itself

If you follow the conflict, the indications are that the Israelis will lose this war. Together with the loss to Hizbollah and the US loss of Iraq war, the picture that emerges is not a good one.
ghoullio Wrote:the guy carrying the dead child has a Nike hat.

never underestimate Israel's ability to defend itself and never underestimate the Pal's ability to set up fake photo ops for PR.

vicious cycle.

seriously, a Nike beanie? in Palestine?
Strange, in the picture there are no weeping women, no blood on the child.

You are right about the vicious cycle, it is now a familiar dance, apparently never ending. The conflict is the tar baby of the world: everyone who tries to "solve it" gets mired in it. Relax, BHO the omniscient will be prime minister (or is it chancellor?) in a few days.

When will Israel run out of ammo? Or do they have an unending supply from the US? Shock and awe cannot last forever. What economic leverage the Pal's have: a few measly rockets (and die hards) invokes millions of dollars in ammo used up by the Israeli's. So, if the Pals have cahones, RPG's and AK47s, things could get interesting in house to house combat. Probably Israel does not want the situation to get to that point.

Palladin Wrote:"All ethnic groups who desire a state and CAN forge one out on their own can have it and none have more right to this EFFORT than any other".
Your criterion therefore does not include the Israeli's, because without the US they would be toast. They are not doing it "on their own" these days. If the Kurds had the backing from the US the Israeli's have, they would be defiantly independent today.
the US hasn't lost in Iraq. a few suicide bombers and assassinations do not make an oposition group superior. Israel's loss to Hezbullah is iffy. i only recently began to see articles where Israel "lost" that war in 2006. when you consider that Israel "Won" all their other wars, one war seems a small comparison. if consideration for the U.n. was revoked and Israel allowed to operate any way it wanted, Israel would win. They would most likely adopt a "Surge" aproach: flood the territories with soldiers to fight the opposition and then win the populace over by providing essential services. these territories would only be given back once that region elected a responsible and peaceful government. this will obviously not work for the Muslim nations that use the Palestinians for recruitment and other dubious things. Islamic nations benefit from a fractured and divided Palestine, a long term solution that benefits Pelestine will never be found if they have anything to say about it.

this current situation, however, is much more obvious. by taking down Hamas' capability to launch rockets en masse, they accomplish two goals: humiliate Hamas and lower the effectiveness of the rocket attacks. once the people in Palestine see that they backed a loser like Hamas, and they are certainly starting to see this, they will begin to back another group, like Fatah, who is has a much better chance at peace with Israel. giving Hamas a black eye like this in a territory where prestige means everything is a fatal embarassment.

Israel doesn't even have to send in ground troops and run a risk like they did in 2006. this method also lets Iran into a closer orbit with Hamas which shines a big ass spotlight on the both of them, as far as international groups are concerned.

there is virtually no outcry from this; the "muslim street" has been surprisingly quiet on this. compare this weekend's reaction with the printing of a few lousy cartoons a few years back...

with the exception of the usual suspects whipping up their people into a hate filled frenzy, it appears that most people lay the blame at Hamas.

long term? Israel affects the elections in Palestine for the good and in turn give more confidence in Israel's own elections.
ghoullio Wrote:the US hasn't lost in Iraq. a few suicide bombers and assassinations do not make an oposition group superior.

US did not lose to the most visible Sunni rebels; it lost to the Shia majority that shifted the country into Iranian orbit; you will see this happening once the US forces are gone. Loss to Hizbollah is not iffy, otherwise why would the Israeli themselves set up a commission to investigate the reasons for the unsatisfactory results. The dynamics of the first five days of the Gaza op indicates that the only way to succeed, still not guaranteed, is massive urban warfare...this is probably what the Israelis will try, and within a couple of days you shall see all the usual culprits, from the Arab League to Condomeeza, in uproar, and the Israelis likely folding.

I'm not enjoying saying this, btw.
JT,

The US had no more to do with the creation of modern Israel than we did with the creation of ancient Israel. Germany can be credited with that,not us.

We didn't begin a security relationship until late 1960.

Having said that,I don't see us having responsibilties except to ourselves and to Iraq and Iraq only because we invaded there under less than acute causes.

If Israel were to fall because the USA didn't treat Israel like the 51st red headed step child state,then from my view,Israel was destined for destruction anyway. America is no more guaranteed existence than Switzerland or Israel,IMO.
Saw this posted on another forum. Thought I would throw it out there for discussion. Emphasis was in the orginal post.
  • Hamas is a Creation of Mossad

    Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation

    Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".

    Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. .According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."

    The Islamists set up orphanages and health clinics, as well as a network of schools, workshops which created employment for women as well as system of financial aid to the poor. And in 1978, they created an "Islamic University" in Gaza. "The military authority was convinced that these activities would weaken both the PLO and the leftist organizations in Gaza." At the end of 1992, there were six hundred mosques in Gaza. Thanks to Israel’s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel’s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks) , the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression.

    In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of a hidden arms cache. But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. And when the Intifada (‘uprising’) began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (The Islamic Resistance Movement): "God is our beginning, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution", proclaims article 7 of the charter of the organization.

    Ahmed Yassin was in prison when, the Oslo accords (Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government) were signed in September 1993. The Hamas had rejected Oslo outright. But at that time, 70% of Palestinians had condemned the attacks on Israeli civilians. Yassin did everything in his power to undermine the Oslo accords. Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin’s death, he had the support of the Israeli government. The latter was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement.

    The Hamas then launched a carefully timed campaign of attacks against civilians, one day before the meeting between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, regarding the formal recognition of Israel by the National Palestinian Council. These events were largely instrumental in the formation of a Right wing Israeli government following the May 1996 elections.

    Quite unexpectedly, Prime Minister Netanyahu ordered Sheik Ahmed Yassin to be released from prison ("on humanitarian grounds") where he was serving a life sentence. Meanwhile, Netanyahu, together with President Bill Clinton, was putting pressure on Arafat to control the Hamas. In fact, Netanyahu knew that he could rely, once more, on the Islamists to sabotage the Oslo accords. Worse still: after having expelled Yassin to Jordan, Prime Minister Netanyahu allowed him to return to Gaza, where he was welcomed triumphantly as a hero in October 1997.

    Arafat was helpless in the face of these events. Moreover, because he had supported Saddam Hussein during the1991 Gulf war, (while the Hamas had cautiously abstained from taking sides), the Gulf states decided to cut off their financing of the Palestinian Authority. Meanwhile, between February and April 1998, Sheik Ahmad Yassin was able to raise several hundred million dollars, from those same countries. The the budget of The Hamas was said to be greater than that of the Palestinian Authority. These new sources of funding enabled the Islamists to effectively pursue their various charitable activities. It is estimated that one Palestinian out of three is the recipient of financial aid from the Hamas. And in this regard, Israel has done nothing to curb the inflow of money into the occupied territories.

    The Hamas had built its strength through its various acts of sabotage of the peace process, in a way which was compatible with the interests of the Israeli government. In turn, the latter sought in a number of ways, to prevent the application of the Oslo accords. In other words, Hamas was fulfilling the functions for which it was originally created: to prevent the creation of a Palestinian State. And in this regard, Hamas and Ariel Sharon, see eye to eye; they are exactly on the same wave length.
Its possible but at this point its certain that Hamas has evolved into something that the Mossad definitely don't approve of.
ASAIK, this is true.

It will not be the first time either.... In essense, the US created AQ and Saddam to deal with other threats, more serious at the time (USSR and Iran). PLO was the main Israeli enemy at the time.

When you help little devils they tend to grow into larger devils.... :lol:
mv Wrote:It will not be the first time either.... In essense, the US created AQ and Saddam to deal with other threats, more serious at the time (USSR and Iran). PLO was the main Israeli enemy at the time.

your knowledge of history is quite deficient, MV. we did not "create" Sadaam, who was a member of a communist party in Iraq. we also did not create AQ. we had a very small part in supplying Mujahadeen in Afghanistan with ground-to-air missles, but that is all.
Anonymous24 Wrote:Its possible but at this point its certain that Hamas has evolved into something that the Mossad definitely don't approve of.

depends on what your goals are.
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