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mv Wrote:Q, does elimination of terrorists constitutes a form of genocide? Should we see terrorists as a legitimate minority, to be protected (cf. gays).
Hitler didn't think so. As the state of Israel today whose objective is to destroy Palestine and erase its population in order to take possession of their land, Hitler tried to erase the Jews to acquire their wealth. He even used the same methods, occupy their land what drives some of them away to seek refuge somewhere else. Round the remaining ones up in a ghetto, build unpenetrable walls around it so they have nowhere to go. Then starve them out. A few of them will resists and shoot back, what causes a little more than welcome collateral damage amongst your own people, and can be used as justification to call them terrorists and to retaliate a hundredfold. Israel refined the method further by covertly promoting those Palestinians who shoot back, by providing waeponry and financing.
The inpenetrable walls for the Palestinians - that which turned them into refugees - was caused by the surrounding Islamic states which refused them the right to return to their countries. The Israelis never forced residents of their territories into camps - it was only those who came from bordering states and claimed possession of unlivable lands that Israel slowly made livable out of the wilderness that were ever a problem.
SNK Wrote:What are the odds of the situation escalating further? Hizbollah is said to have regained all of its strenght and then quite some more. Iran also might want to do something,

Hard to predict when the parties mentioned may not be suffering from excessive sanity....but I'd not expect anything *direct* from Iran and probably not much from Hizbollah...maybe a few deniable missilies? (UNIFIL found some ready-to-shoot missiles last week).

Syria cut off "peace negotiations" with Israel...this is probably as far as they will go.

Quote:Mmm, around 6500 reservists have been mobilized already, I hope my cousins will be safe.

Best wishes! It seems the Israelis are going to do a ground invasion too, and this may get very bloody.
if this is a ploy to influence elections in February, i would not expect a ground attack. this was an attack meant to knock out Hamas' rocket capabilities. i saw a video where a target was bombed as a rocket was launched.

Hamas military complexes were built purposefully inside residential areas. the only thing protecting the Palestinian people is the Israeli precision.

Israel has also put a large number of troops on vacation, but the goal of warfare is deception, so there may be more coming. Israel has a very small window to operate in. BHO is not yet in and they probably assume that Bush's Give a Damn is busted. there are Israeli elections upcoming, so that is also a factor.

also, this may be an attempt to bring Iran into the frey in order to gain a pretext to striking Iran's nuke facilities.

all in all, i expect silence from Syria and if Egypt cannot control its territory (Gaza), then it is up to Israel to defend itself from constant rocket attacks.
The hezzbollah question is a good one,but,it is my opinion Hezzbolah's recent success was due to the defensive preparations and the IDF's poor leadership at the time.

Hezzbollah likely would perish if they tried a serious offensive. I suspect some rockets are in order myself. I hope the IDF doesn't invade Gaza,I hope the PLO does though.
Quote:if this is a ploy to influence elections in February, i would not expect a ground attack. this was an attack meant to knock out Hamas' rocket capabilities.
Air bombing only will not diminish Hamas' capabilities, this has been in particular proven by the war with Hizbollah. Not doing a ground op is likely to result in heavier than usual bombardment by the time of elections....or perhaps UN forces stationed in Gaza... so I would expect at least some ground action, and likely within a week.

--------------

Here is another interesting question: timing. That the Israelis were considering a Gaza op since 2005 is pretty clear, the question is why exactly now? (cf.: Junior considered ethnic cleansing in Ossetia for a few years and chose the Olympic week for an element of surprise).

In the case of Gaza, we see:
1. Deceptive opening of crossing just before the attack -- smart move, but this could have done at any time.
2. Israeli elections are surely a factor.
3. US elections are likely a factor: doing this while Junior is in office is more predictable than with the new Osama's admin.
4. India-Pak conflict keeps heating up, it may be that the two will be at war in a week, and then the UN will have less bandwidth to bitch about what the Israelis are doing....

Any of these or anything else?
automatically strike out number four. I do not forsee India and Pakistan coming to war.

number one was a great move. that's why i love the IDF, their ability to surprise is unsurpassed. two, absolutely the elections in both countries played a major role in this attack. Bush is out and BHO is in, but we are at a point where neither one can really affect anything. However, i doubt anyone is Israel thought about BHO being in Hawaii, its more a general time line.

simply put, Israel is tired of the rockets and has an obligation to its people to prevent the rocket attacks. the air raid on the military complexes takes out most of their rocket capability, yet leaves enough boots intact to fight Fatah of Hezbullah or whoever steps in to fill the void. Israel is the best at itting enemies against each other. it is in their best interest that neither FATAH nor HAMAS gain an upper hand.

but IDF is full of surprises, so we may all be taken for a lark in the coming days.
OFT: Hmmm... I'd like to offer $1 bet on #4.... can anyone think of a way to do such bets? Something like Paypal?


And then of course there is #5 I managed to miss:

St Wrote:On Friday, Hamas terminated its unilateral truce with the Israelis. The decision was accompanied by rockets fired into Israel and claims by Hamas that it had longer-range rockets capable of striking deeper into Israel.
Didn't your great president Bush and his black sidekick earlier this year promise they would broker lasting peace down there until the end of his term?
quadrat Wrote:Didn't your great president Bush and his black sidekick earlier this year promise they would broker lasting peace down there until the end of his term?

no, i didn't hear that one. please provide a link, oh gracious and intellectually honest one...

meanwhile, Israel continues to kick some ass.
the Jerusalem Post Wrote:IAF aircraft bombed the Islamic University and government compound in Gaza City early Monday morning, both centers of Hamas power. Witnesses saw fire and smoke at the university, counting six separate air strikes there just after midnight.




IDF continues airstrike on the Gaza Strip, attacks prison, homes of Hamas field commanders

Two laboratories in the university, which served as research and development centers for Hamas's military wing, were targeted. The development of explosives was done under the auspices of university professors.

University buildings were also used for meetings of senior Hamas officials.

The IDF said rockets and explosives were stored in the buildings.

oh and this pic, courtesy of Belmont Club's Richard Fernandez and the IDF, shows a military complex, within a residential area, used to "interrogate" Fatah members and anyone accused of cooperating with Israel. surely this place is much much worse than Guantanamo, yet we have heard nothing of this place until now. wonder why that is...
[Image: hamascomplex.jpg]

no, wait. no i don't.
quadrat Wrote:Didn't your great president Bush and his black sidekick earlier this year promise they would broker lasting peace down there until the end of his term?
Utterly ridiculous to bring Bush into this. Yes, he promised, but he failed...as did Clinton, as did the rest of the international community, and as did every UN resolution since 1948 and any other agreements from earlier periods.
But if you want to say Bush did nothing but make empty promises, go right ahead. Just realize that you would be wrong.
There are millions of people on both sides of the aisle in this conflict, Palestinians and Israelis, so if you have any suggestions I'm sure they and the rest of the world would be more than happy to listen to you.
quadrat Wrote:Didn't your great president Bush and his black sidekick earlier this year promise they would broker lasting peace down there until the end of his term?

HAMAS has killed more "Palestinians" this year alone than Israel has in two years.
mv Wrote:
St Wrote:On Friday, Hamas terminated its unilateral truce with the Israelis. The decision was accompanied by rockets fired into Israel and claims by Hamas that it had longer-range rockets capable of striking deeper into Israel.

thank you, Iran. the last time Israel put a boot up someone's ass, the focus on Iran was diverted and allowed them to come that much closer to obtaining a nuke. this time, i think this puts the focus DIRECTLY on Iran, though you wouldn't know it by the catterwalling from the U.N.
22 days until BHO takes over. A small window for Israel hitting Iran.

BHO will save us.
jt Wrote:22 days until BHO takes over. A small window for Israel hitting Iran.

BHO will save us.

Obama has too many Israeli handlers for that to be the case.
KenRI Wrote:There are millions of people on both sides of the aisle in this conflict, Palestinians and Israelis, so if you have any suggestions I'm sure they and the rest of the world would be more than happy to listen to you.
Actually, I do. The true home, and promised land, and place were most Jews live, are the U.S. Rummaged last night trough the lists of your senators and congressmen (looking up something about the crackpot Inhofe) and realised about 1/3 of them are Jews. Quite many compared to their percentage of the population. A single atheist is mentioned, there are more Buddhist as well as Muslims in your parliament. You must be insane.
I'm sure the holy script can be interpreted with America as the promised land, somehow. Resettling the illegally living Jews in the abomination called Israel to the U.S. would be a great enrichment to your nation anyway, just consider their experience at the fertilization of deserts. Important knowhow in the age of global warming.
Just curious, did your Jewish agenda-driven media inform you that Israel, not the Palestinians, broke the truce? The terms of the truce said that Israel would relieve the access to Gaza (and to Israel and the West Bank) for Palestinians, and let goods and fuel in. Instead, Israel imposed a total blockade while the truce lasted. There is hunger in Gaza, the sick can't be treated, no electricity. Even foreign journalists cannot enter Gaza. The pics and videos you watch from there are taken by Palestinians. You might have noted there is never a CNN or whatever reporter speaking into the cameras.
q, just so you know I'm not some right-wing Christian Zionist. I've been into many a debate with those who think Israel is the Chosen. I think the Church replaced them (but that's for another topic). Plus I'm not too fond of the wall. I think Carter is correct calling it an Apartheid wall.

Anti-Zionism I can understand, but your post reeks of anti-Semitism. Why?

Quote:Instead, Israel imposed a total blockade while the truce lasted. There is hunger in Gaza, the sick can't be treated, no electricity.
Yes, there is a humanitarian crisis in Palestine, but most of it is caused by the corrupt Hamas government. And that's not true about Israel blockades. Although they did block it for a time, they allowed humanitarian aid across the borders.

The truce also said for Hamas not to fire rockets into Israel and stop building tunnels into Egypt.
I suffer from holocaust fatique. You see, no one makes the differentiation with Germans in good and bad ones, we all staged the holocaust. Therefore, because the state of Israel is a terror state which doesn't recognize the right of Palestine to exist, all Jews are terrorists. I'm also fed up with the holocaust being used to justify their crimes today. Complained before about the term 'anti-semitism', which suggests that racism against Jews is more deplorable than racism against anybody else. It's not because the Jews are not special.

Quote:Yes, there is a humanitarian crisis in Palestine, but most of it is caused by the corrupt Hamas government. And that's not true about Israel blockades. Although they did block it for a time, they allowed humanitarian aid across the borders.
Want to estimate how many grams of food could be distributed to 1.5 m Palestinians in the Gaza strip since the arrival of 33 truck loads on November 19?

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/11/19/60400.html
Quote:11/19/2008

Defense Minister Ehud Barak ordered Israel's crossings to remain closed on Wednesday after militants in the Hamas-ruled territory continued to fire rockets against southern Israel on Tuesday, a defense official said.

Hamas gunmen fired mortar bombs at Israeli soldiers searching for explosives near the Gaza border fence on Tuesday, the Israeli military and Hamas said. There were no reported casualties from that incident.

U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday conveyed to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert his concern about the plight of people in Gaza and urged him ease the delivery of humanitarian aid in the territory, his office said.

"The secretary-general today telephoned Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to express his deep concern over the consequences of the deteriorating humanitarian situation in Gaza," the office said in a statement.

"He strongly urged the prime minister to facilitate the free movement of urgently needed humanitarian supplies and of concerned United Nations personnel into Gaza," it added.

"The Israeli Prime Minister denounced the continuing rocket fire into Israel from Gaza, but agreed to look seriously into the urgent matter raised by the secretary-general," the statement concluded.

Humanitarian supplies

Chris Gunness, UNRWAFood distribution to half the Gaza Strip's 1.5 million population resumed on Tuesday, although the United Nations warned aid supplies would soon run out unless Israel eases its crippling blockade.

"Distribution will go on of the very small amount we brought in on Monday," said U.N. Relief and Works Agency spokesman Chris Gunness.

"The supplies will last days, not weeks," he told AFP.

Crowds rushed to the UNRWA distribution centers to try to get hold of the limited supplies of flour, sugar, rice, powdered milk and luncheon meat.

Israel had allowed 33 truckloads of supplies into Gaza for the first time in two weeks on Monday, and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas he would not permit a humanitarian crisis to develop there.

Israel has also held up fuel shipments to Gaza's main power plant, leading to periodic electricity blackouts each day for many of the 1.5 million Palestinians living in the territory.

Collapsed truce

Until Monday, Israel had not allowed UNRWA, a United Nations agency that aids some 750,000 refugees in Gaza, to bring in supplies since Nov. 4 during cross-border fighting in which more than a dozen Palestinian fighters were killed.

Several Israelis have been slightly wounded by dozens of rockets fired by gunmen after Israeli raids.

In talks with Olmert in Jerusalem on Monday, Abbas urged Israel to abide by a 5-month-old Egyptian-brokered truce with Hamas Islamists, a deal which has neared collapse in the past two weeks of fighting.

Hamas accuses Israel of failing to deliver on its side of the bargain.

Nearly every day for the past two weeks, Israeli forces and Gaza militants have engaged in tit-for-tat attacks, which have left 15 Palestinian gunmen dead.

The Israeli parliament is to return from its winter recess to hold a special session on the Gaza violence next Monday, a spokesman said.
It's quite a bit more than 33 truck loads.

Assistance #1:
Quote:The European Commission has allocated €44 million to address the urgent humanitarian needs of the most vulnerable Palestinians and those populations affected by the conflict in Iraq. More than 1.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, will benefit from €24 million in humanitarian aid. The funds will cover livelihood support, food assistance, the provision of basic health care as well as water and sanitation services. Special attention is being paid to children, particularly for psychological support. The other €20 million are being allocated to provide protection and relief to Iraqi refugees, internally displaced persons and other vulnerable populations affected by the conflict in Iraq, both inside and outside the country.
LINK

Assistance #2:
Quote:The European Commission announced Tuesday it would provide a further 7.4 million euros (about 10.4 million U.S. dollars) for humanitarian aid for vulnerable Palestinians and 5 million euros for vulnerable Iraqis, with the funds to be used mainly for food aid for some 1.9 million people in the two regions.

LINK

Assistance #3 (from Israel):
Quote:Despite the mortar shell fire, Israel began transferring humanitarian aid to Gaza on Friday morning.

The army said the first of an expected 90 trucks started to deliver medicine, fuel, cooking gas and other vital goods to the Strip on Friday.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak decided Thursday to open the Kerem Shalom and Sufa crossings to allow the transfer of humanitarian supplies to Gaza.


LINK
True, the EU allocated the funds to Palestine and that coincided with the begin of the truce. Note the date of your first article. However, the humanitarian aid has to cross Israel, and Israel refused the crossing to Gaza. Exactly my point. The caravan which arrived on Friday 12/26/2008 was the first since mid November. Six weeks with no aid deliveries.
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