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Full Version: Putin And The Case for 'Alien Logic'
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Interesting and revealing article that sums up the intellectual divide between Russia and US. Or Russia and other 'so called' democracies.
Quote:George Bush knew Vladimir Putin would be defensive when Bush brought up the pace of democratic reform in Russia in their private meeting at the end of Bush's four-day, three-city tour of Europe. But when Bush talked about the Kremlin's crackdown on the media and explained that democracies require a free press, the Russian leader gave a rebuttal that left the President nonplussed. If the press was so free in the U.S., Putin asked, then why had those reporters at CBS lost their jobs? Bush was openmouthed. "Putin thought we'd fired Dan Rather," says a senior Administration official. "It was like something out of 1984."

The Russians did not let the matter drop. Later, during the leaders' joint press conference, one of the questioners Putin called on asked Bush about the very same firings, a coincidence the White House assumed had been orchestrated. The odd episode reinforced the Administration's view that Putin's impressions of America are often based on urban myths fed to him by ill-informed aides. (At a past summit, according to Administration aides, Putin asked Bush whether it was true that chicken producers split their production into plants that serve the U.S. and lower-quality ones that process substandard chicken for Russia.) U.S. aides say that to help fight against this kind of misinformation, they are struggling to build relationships that go beyond Putin. "We need to go deeper into the well into other levels of government," explains an aide.
This shows just how far Russia has to go before it even gets it mental fingers around any democratic values, much less impliments them.

Clearly one side is talking over the other and verse visa. To think that the President ordered the firing of the CBS executives should be enough to startle anyone not prepared for this. And it clearly shows that there is much travel to be made down the long road to liberty in Russia. Shock
JohnL,

This reminds me of Kruschev. He really thought our economy was centrally planned and couldn't understand why we were so much more efficient at planning than his guys were.

Brezhnev marvelled at that,too. Why they cast their ways on us psychologically I don't know. It's hard to believe Vladimir really thinks Bush controls the press over here.
Quote:Brezhnev marvelled at that,too. Why they cast their ways on us psychologically I don't know. It's hard to believe Vladimir really thinks Bush controls the press over here.-Palladin
It is because they do not know better: alien logic. Believe it or not, I have know this for years, having studied Russia and having visited Moscow in the 60s. But it is so easy to forget this, with things changing so quickly.

then along comes this news and I am transported back to my earlier revelations again. It will take me a long time to again be misled about Russians and their inability to think with the same processes as we do. Same with most of the world as well.

They are simply incapable of getting their little mental fingers around the concept of liberty.

Again, Alien Logic in human bodies. We don't need to go to other worlds. The aliens are right here!
Putin, unlike Khrushev et al, spent quite a lot of time in Germany (as a spy); it is hard to imagine that he does not know how the things work.

What this is is likely propaganda toward his domestic audience -- some of which indeed may buy this. What is interesting is that he does not mind to appear as an idiot in western eyes if he can score a minor point domestically; this says something about his priorities.
Guys, when you are discussing Rockfeller's interview about problems with nuclear materials in Russia, it looks word "american" is medical diagnosis and the most ill are on the top in US. So russian leaders aren't monopolists in naivity.
Dan Rather is swindler, but a lot of materials by Politkovskaya, Babitsky and others from former Gusinsky media are falsehood as well, but they continue to work in Novaya Gazeta, Echo Moskvy, Kommersant etc. You can read their "materials" on www.echo.msk.ru . And american "unrest" about problems of "free media" in Russia looks enough strange after problems with Dan Rather, Piter Arnett etc. We have enough interviews with Basayev and Maschadov in russian media and our "Arnett" was not fired. It's not matter who exactly fired Rather and Arnett. Stalin's repressions were provided by the hands of "ordinary working people", who participated in demonstrations with slogans "Death to enemies of people!". Now "ordinary americans" prefer to wright letters "Dan Rather Must Be Fired". Actually their mentality is the same - if I dislike it, it mustn't exist. I prefer another way - if I dislike RenTV, I'm watching another channel. Oh sorry, CNN is the only TV channel in US.
BTW1, if Kerry would win, who would be fired?
BTW2, it was not Putin, who asked about 4 fired reporters of CNN. It was reporter of Interfax. I watched it on TV.
BTW3, Bush opened his mouth and stood like paralytic, when reporter of always oppositional "Kommersant" asked both Bush and Putin: " Why there is no democracy in US and Russia, but there is democracy in Holland?" It was perfect comedy, but american media even hadn't understand: who asked, what about, who answered... Thanks God I could watch it on russian TV.
Quote:" Why there is no democracy in US and Russia, but there is democracy in Holland?"
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Is there any way to get a transcript? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thanks.
Quote:" Why there is no democracy in US and Russia, but there is democracy in Holland?"


As observed on the other thread, Dutch are voting with their feet. S1 This is the ultimate democracy.
mv Wrote:
Quote:" Why there is no democracy in US and Russia, but there is democracy in Holland?"


As observed on the other thread, Dutch are voting with their feet. S1 This is the ultimate democracy.

Exactly, mv, but they couldn't answer honestly: "Cause we don't want to be like Holland..." Bush was shocked and begin to defend american way, Putin answered the second and he have experience in this situation but both were enough ugly. I almost chocked with my dinner.
AG, the phrase isn't absolutely precise, I remember sense of his question. And I remember formulating was enough clumsy.It's sad russian media had not published exact words too...
Hi bh Welcome!

Thank you for joining us while wrestling with our crazy patchwork language lol

I must admit...I understand our President's speechlessness (startlement).

When I was in Russia during the 1970s...a senior engineer on a pipeline we were welding asked me directly and seriously why we wanted to conquer and invade his country. My mouth hung open for a looooong moment. (believe it or not we never had any interest in doing so.)

It's like an alien coming here from another planet and innocently asking

"Why mankind make all females smaller than men?"

Or like my son when he was seven on exiting a ballet asking me " why didn't they just get taller girls to start with?" Huh?
.
.
.
.
.
.
(he had observed the ballerinas dancing on their tip-toes the whole night lol )

John L nailed it perfectly..."alien logic" or maybe it is"alien perception" of things.
Best regards
Ken Bean
KenBean Wrote:Hi bh Welcome!

Thank you for joining us while wrestling with our crazy patchwork language :lol:

Thanks Ken, for me 1970 was a year of ... Angela Davis... Who remember her?
If this is Offtopic, it is only slightly.

50% OF RUSSIANS POSITIVELY ASSESSES STALIN'S ROLE IN RUSSIA'S LIFE

Mr. Stalin is responsible for something like 50 mil lives....Alien logic, all right, but perhaps also a sign of things to come.
BH,

I recall Angela. Posterchild for America's Marxists and fellow travelling boneheads in the late 60s. Fairly attractive black female UCLA professor.

"Free Angela Davis"!
Well, Bush 43 could have responded to Putin that of the four people at CBS who were caught with their political agenda interfering with their job descriptions, exactly none of them have left CBS yet—so the government couldn't have fired them. They're still there! I understand there was talk of people going here or there, but, to the best of my knowledge, they are still waiting for another shoe to drop.
On this note,I want to recommend a pretty good book on Russki people

"The Russians" by Headrick Smith.

Insightful,they due to their history are and probably always will be xenophobic to an extent.
Palladin Wrote:Insightful,they due to their history are and probably always will be xenophobic to an extent.

Pal, xenophobia could preserve Holland from problems with muslims, anti-Semitism could preserve Russia from bolshevism in 1917... Continue? Sometime vice guards, though it's still vice...
IMHO it's point too:

Suppose Russian President Vladimir Putin visited Canada and announced that the United States was retreating from its principles of freedom since Sept. 11. The United States, he might have said, has denied due process of law to some American citizens.
It has established a concentration camp in Cuba. It has tortured prisoners, indeed often and in many places. It denies aliens the right to trial by jury. It acts like the only ones who have Thomas Jefferson's inalienable rights are American citizens -- sometimes, that is.

Then, suppose Putin said there are a lot of flaws in your democracy. You certainly don't think your Electoral College is democratic, do you? Neither is your Senate. With its disproportionate representation of smaller states. Rhode Island is as big as California? Gimme a break!


http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/sto...e=3/4/2005
And point of Spiegel (text in Russian)
"Wellcome to Bushland" by Klaus Brinkbaeumer.
http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/01/06/28/3008/217767.html
BTW, site http://www.inosmi.ru is an example of "nonfree" russian media, where you can find everyday translations in Russian of fresh articles from all the world.
The last fom US about Putin are:
-Vova the Terrible, "The Wall Street Journal", Nina L. Khrushcheva
-West can't understand Putin, "Open Democracy", Mary Dejevsky
It were critical articles about Putin, translated for undeveloped readers. Headlines are in reversed translations...
Here you can find fresh materials about Ukraine from: "The International Herald Tribune", "The Washington Post"... I doubt you can find similar site in english with translations from russian media...
BH,

Xenophobia though is an irrational fear of anything that isn't native.

What you are describing is a RATIONAL fear of losing your own culture to a foreign one.

Plus,I do not think you guys have it terrible bad,I just think it will always be that many Russki view anything from us as probably nefarious,even if it's not.

I agree with your take on Bush's comments,but I will say this. Americans are sincere in HOPING you Russians have a good government and we always view democracy as the best government.
So,instead of being like we are with Syria or Iran where there is hostility ideologically as in the Soviet days,in Russia we are doing it because we sincerely think Russia is close to the right way and we don't want to see you guys lose it. In other words,Bush is trying to act like a grandfather hinting to his grandson not to take drugs.

However,I have already said that it is not our business to be preaching to others about their internal affairs. I fully understand your complaints.
Pal, I know the only sort of xenophobia here - towards Microsoft and in favor of Sun, Red Hat etc... But they all are american companies. Every russian understand what does it mean - IBM, Intel, Unix (f...ck Microsoft) for modern civilization and who did it. Though I think it's unfair towards Microsoft. Political antipathy does not equal xenophobia.
BH,

I might have used too strong a word. Do you agree with the following statement?

"Many Russki view democracy and free press as western tools to harm Russia"?
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