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Belinda Stronach went to the US for surgury because she is a billionaire and she wanted the best surgeon money could buy. If I had a billion I probably wouldn't be content with good and adequate either. The rest I'll deal with when I have the time.

For a sneak preview I'll probably start with a few reallife instances of Americans who have been bankrupted when they got unlucky and needed to be fixed.

Catch ya later Pal'a.

How ya like the new look?
GG,

I already said I LOVE IT.

No,you won't show anyone who has been bankrupted in the USA due to medical care. They can get care for nothing,it's a fact. The only difference between our way and your way is our central government does not direct much,yours does. BOTH are entirely socialist for poor folks,ours stops at poor folks.

Penniless blind people get free care here. Is there a case where some odd situation comes up? Sure,how about 1 like this?

Man chooses his whole life to live beyond his means,never prepares for the future,then when he's 60 gets heart disease,never paid for insurance so he and the wife could always take that $5 K vacation cruise annually and he's now needing surgery.

He gets bankrupted because he had no insurance,but had a job? HIS FAULT,HIS PROBLEM.

Yea,that happens for sure. I will not pay for his lifestyle,I handle my problems differently,I can see past my nose.
I think what Gray Ghost would point to is stories where a catastrophic illness gutted a family's savings because bureaucracy took all the money it could before kicking in the bureaucratic largess.

The most common complaints are simple people living paycheck to paycheck and getting caught in the lapse of coverage or claims of pre-existing conditions. Happens all the time.

The solution is not to go to socialized medicine - because that just increases the misery - but to improve what we have by cutting bureaucracy and government meddling - and then looking at the best ways to handle catastrophic illnesses.
WmLambert Wrote:Gray Ghost, the statistics put out by France and other socialized healthcare systems have come under tighter scrutiny since Michael Moore's fantasy hit the theaters. Did you know that the U.S. stats are pulled down because we collect infant mortality information on all births, whether normal or not? Any child born in France or Germany weighing less than normal is not added to their numbers, while in the U.S. they are. Of course, that is the basis behind the two systems. The U.S. does not assume any case is impossible, where elsewhere Triage is the name of the game. Those numbers these countries are so proud do not begin at the same starting blocks as in the U.S. I wonder why?
Huh? Could you please elaborate further? Early borns or so? Before the 21th or 24th week of pregnancy and a kilo or so bodyweight they can't survive even in an incubator. Don't tell me you count them as newborns instead miscarriages. Meanwhile, I put your statement in the 'WmLambert agenda-driven propaganda folder'.
I guess you would like the German system. Employees up to a certain income (a couple of years back Euro 3,500 per month) are in a compulsory public insurance with standartised benefits, above that and all selfemployed people can go to a public, or private insurance according to their wallets and benefits they want, or not be insured at all.
Fact is, your healthcare is by far the most expensive worldwide, and does not produce better results than the cheap one of e.g. Cuba. A disgrace, and it does not give you credit to defend that money-making machinery for which the well-being of the patients is no concern at all.

John,
wasn't there some ruckus about the conditions at Reed hospital a few months back?
Yes, that is exactly what happens. Babies born with little chance to live are written off by other countries, but in the U.S. heroic measures are taken to save them - and they are counted in the statistics under childhood mortality figures because here, there is a genuine chance to save them. The other countries do not even categorize many under weight (for their backward prenatal healthcare) births as births at all. Not apples to apples, but apples to cinderblocks.

Half Sigma Wrote:The reason why our infant mortality rate is high is because our rate of low birthweight births is high. After a low birthweight infant is born, it has “better chances of survival in the United States than elsewhere.” But the reason for why low birthweight births are more common in the U.S. than in other developed countries is a mystery.

The U.S. also leads those other countries in births per 1000 women, so that there are more births as well as documented deaths.
WmLambert Wrote:Yes, that is exactly what happens. Babies born with little chance to live are written off by other countries, but in the U.S. heroic measures are taken to save them - and they are counted in the statistics under childhood mortality figures because here, there is a genuine chance to save them. The other countries do not even categorize many under weight (for their backward prenatal healthcare) births as births at all. Not apples to apples, but apples to cinderblocks.
Heroic measures? You're sending in the Marines or so? Babies under a certain weight are nonviable, that's a fact of life. Your incubators are not better than ours. Just try to seperate business and ethics.

Half Sigma Wrote:The reason why our infant mortality rate is high is because our rate of low birthweight births is high. After a low birthweight infant is born, it has “better chances of survival in the United States than elsewhere.” But the reason for why low birthweight births are more common in the U.S. than in other developed countries is a mystery.
A mystery? It's the result of poverty, malnutrition, drug abuse, and lack of medical care throughout the pregnancy, which would discover and fight problems before it's too late. Just to name a few causes.
Quote:A mystery? It's the result of poverty, malnutrition, drug abuse, and lack of medical care throughout the pregnancy, which would discover and fight problems before it's too late. Just to name a few causes.

Yes, that's exactly it. And the poverty is the reason why there is no prenatal care because mothers are not going to spend a lot of money on care which they feel there is no need to spend their precious few dollars on.

It's so baffling to me that those who sing the praises of humanity are the ones who most often try to explain away the facts in order to maintain the for-profit system. A system which costs much more than other systems which produce just as good quality of healthcare.

I'm convinced on may other issues too that it really is agenda-driven propaganda. It needn't be because a lot of money could be saved by accepting change, even if it's only a state run system competing with the private insurers which would make them become competitive.
GG,

Are you a supporter of communism?
Palladin Wrote:GG,

Are you a supporter of communism?

No, I support people and I understand that a mixing of socially responsible government is important in a capitalist system. If the system swings too far to the right the people will rise up and demand change. I think that is what is happening right now in the US. It's quite inevitable that the people will only take so much. I think that Canada tries to strike that balance and has succeeded remarkably well for a long time now. Canada looks after all it's citizens while it's still easy for a person to prosper easily in Canada if he is ambitious.

This is all I want you people to start understanding. You can't ever have what people like you and William want because the people will never let it get that far, even if people like W try to force it on them with devious methods.

Now as for Cuba, I support what they have until they have the will to change it. I think they would have progressed more quickly if the US had not made it so difficult by interfering and I think that after Bush is ousted things will change. Fidel Castro didn't want poverty for his people, he wanted prosperity and freedom from the evil government which he replaced. I have hopes for Cuba but I don't want to see the US go in with force and destroy everything they have gained since their revolution.

Eventually communism doesn't work but it's necessary in the case of Cuba to bring about change. There is no other way the rich and greedy would ever give up their wealth any other way and Cuba can't support a few billionaires at the expense of teh people.
GG wrote:
Quote:I have hopes for Cuba but I don't want to see the US go in with force and destroy everything they have gained since their revolution.

Palladin, he's a commie.

-S
Stars & Stripes Wrote:GG wrote:
Quote:I have hopes for Cuba but I don't want to see the US go in with force and destroy everything they have gained since their revolution.

Palladin, he's a commie.

-S

And he's a Genuine, Unique, 100% Know-It-All to boot. What could be more fun? Between him, our Official Fool, and the Ultimate Dupe, we pretty much have all the based covered now, don't we?
Palladin Wrote:GG,

I already said I LOVE IT.

No,you won't show anyone who has been bankrupted in the USA due to medical care. They can get care for nothing,it's a fact. The only difference between our way and your way is our central government does not direct much,yours does. BOTH are entirely socialist for poor folks,ours stops at poor folks.

Penniless blind people get free care here. Is there a case where some odd situation comes up? Sure,how about 1 like this?

Man chooses his whole life to live beyond his means,never prepares for the future,then when he's 60 gets heart disease,never paid for insurance so he and the wife could always take that $5 K vacation cruise annually and he's now needing surgery.

He gets bankrupted because he had no insurance,but had a job? HIS FAULT,HIS PROBLEM.

Yea,that happens for sure. I will not pay for his lifestyle,I handle my problems differently,I can see past my nose.

Is it a few isolated cases as you say Pal, or is it half the bankruptcies in the US that are due to medical bills? Hmmmmm?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0202-08.htm

And how about that promise to ignore me? Are you a liar too?

You people are all little pretenders and I really don't know why you bother because you don't fool anyone but yourselves. Why would you not want to fix your country? I just don't get it.
S&S,

He's a wannabe Marxist,he doesn't have a clue what it's about.

I know what he is thinking,I just wanted to make him say it. He lied,which is his modus operandi. This kid is flat out dishonest. Not of much value for this forum,which I regret.

We need an honest posterof theleftand here we have this dishonest clown who worships Castro and Che as I worship Jesus Christ. Then denies it

I don't deny my faith in Christ,what's wrong with our communist wannabe from Canada? Ashamed of your faith?

Thisis the problem with Marxism,it has lost it's true believers and has only these vapid college kids who lived in luxury supporting what is a messianic faith. W/O that dedication,it's a joke,with it we would have to kill our little cowardly friend here in combat someday.

No fear of having to do that.
Quadrat:

Quote:A mystery? It's the result of poverty, malnutrition, drug abuse, and lack of medical care throughout the pregnancy, which would discover and fight problems before it's too late. Just to name a few causes.

Women in poverty should not be having babies.

Women having lack of food should not be having babies.

Women who use mind altering drugs should not be having babies.

Women who do not have adequate medical care should not be having babies.

To summarise:

Women should be married.Stay off drugs.Eat well and be ready to have a baby.
Grey Ghost:

Quote:Now as for Cuba, I support what they have until they have the will to change it. I think they would have progressed more quickly if the US had not made it so difficult by interfering and I think that after Bush is ousted things will change. Fidel Castro didn't want poverty for his people, he wanted prosperity and freedom from the evil government which he replaced. I have hopes for Cuba but I don't want to see the US go in with force and destroy everything they have gained since their revolution.

Aside from the military and police squads along with Castro and his chosen few.There are very few people who want to live there.

Cubans regularly try to leave any way they can.Castro tries to stop it.

Have you taken a serious look at the decrepit condition of that nation?

It is a run down nation.Courtesy of the Comminist Castro government.There are NO wealth producing enterprises going on there.It is ALL state run.

Everything is NATIONALIZED


Quote:Eventually communism doesn't work but it's necessary in the case of Cuba to bring about change. There is no other way the rich and greedy would ever give up their wealth any other way and Cuba can't support a few billionaires at the expense of teh people.

The few billionaires are the ones running the country.Castro is a BILLIONAIRE!

I think you are one of the remaining marxist morons who has delusions.
duplicate
sunsettommy Wrote:Grey Ghost:

Quote:Now as for Cuba, I support what they have until they have the will to change it. I think they would have progressed more quickly if the US had not made it so difficult by interfering and I think that after Bush is ousted things will change. Fidel Castro didn't want poverty for his people, he wanted prosperity and freedom from the evil government which he replaced. I have hopes for Cuba but I don't want to see the US go in with force and destroy everything they have gained since their revolution.

Aside from the military and police squads along with Castro and his chosen few.There are very few people who want to live there.

Cubans regularly try to leave any way they can.Castro tries to stop it.

Have you taken a serious look at the decrepit condition of that nation?

It is a run down nation.Courtesy of the Comminist Castro government.There are NO wealth producing enterprises going on there.It is ALL state run.

Everything is NATIONALIZED


Quote:Eventually communism doesn't work but it's necessary in the case of Cuba to bring about change. There is no other way the rich and greedy would ever give up their wealth any other way and Cuba can't support a few billionaires at the expense of teh people.

The few billionaires are the ones running the country.Castro is a BILLIONAIRE!

I think you are one of the remaining marxist morons who has delusions.

Yes tommy, I have taken a close look at Cuba and I have taken a close look at many other poor countries and I can tell you that Cuba looks good compared to many. And as I have already said, state runhealthcare and education for all puts an entirely different light on poverty. I can only think that if you don't understand this then you are either living a sheltered life or you have no idea of how bad poverty can get.

I think the problem with most Americans is that they are raised to hate, hate, hate, anything which sounds like communism. You just really don't know what you're talking about and you probably don't care enough to find out the real facts about Cuba. THat's because people starving to death in poor countries where the greed of capitalism is the rule is of no interest to you. All that's important is that communism be crushed and the people be crushed wth it. I just feel that lives of people are more important and that's why I see Cuba as being head and shoulders ahead of most poor C. American and S. American countries. Granted they are not at our standards but if they were given a chance they would soon prove that they could do very well. Of course he US could never allow that to happen because it would be an embarassment.

Sure people try to leave Cuba because they become highly educated and want to better themselves. Their banana republic doesn't afford the opportunities for all the people to live a high standard of living (whatever the hell that is) so they try to leave. But people try to leave capitalist rich countries too for a better lifestyle and more opportunity.
sunsettommy Wrote:Quadrat:

Quote:A mystery? It's the result of poverty, malnutrition, drug abuse, and lack of medical care throughout the pregnancy, which would discover and fight problems before it's too late. Just to name a few causes.

Women in poverty should not be having babies.

Women having lack of food should not be having babies.

Women who use mind altering drugs should not be having babies.

Women who do not have adequate medical care should not be having babies.

To summarise:

Women should be married.Stay off drugs.Eat well and be ready to have a baby.
Your stance on sociology is as quixotic as the one on global warming. What women should do is their individual decision.

GG, good statements. Don't be surprised by the insults of the gentlemen here. People can forgive somebody who's wrong, but never one who's right. Why do people with brains defend a system that exploits them, keeps them in fear and uncertainties, and drops them as soon as they outlive their usefulness?
Quadrat:

Quote:Your stance on sociology is as quixotic as the one on global warming. What women should do is their individual decision.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

It is obvious that you failed to get the point.
Stars & Stripes Wrote:GG wrote:
Quote:I have hopes for Cuba but I don't want to see the US go in with force and destroy everything they have gained since their revolution.

Palladin, he's a commie.

-S

May be, may be... But Yuri Luzhkov on your avatar looks suspiciously...
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