AI-Jane Political, And Economic Forums

Full Version: Bolivia Inching Towards Civil War?
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2
Wonder if this is more racial angst or international Marxist think that animates Chavez and Morales?



HERE
Let me print here what I stated earlier, on the Moderator Section, Stratfor piece of the same thing, only more detailed.

Stratfor stated,

Quote:The four Bolivian lowland departments of Santa Cruz, Tarija, Beni and Pando declared autonomy Dec. 15, setting the stage for more clashes between the largely poor and indigenously populated western highlands and the richer, European-descended lowlanders of the East.

[Image: bolivia.JPG]

Holy Cow Batman! I really did not realize that there was so much of Bolivia in Amazon River Basin. I thought most of it to be Andean in elevation. I just looked at a topographical map of Bolivia and Brazil, and I see that the Rio Madeiro empties directly into the Amazon, and on to the Atlantic. Looks like a great commercial route for a newly independent area.

I figured this may well lead to an eventual declaration of independence, but commercial access via river commerce is indeed a viable one here.

Viva La Revolución!!
I stated further.

Just look at how this riverine system favours the lowlands and how it occupies so much of the country in question. It's amazing how much commerce can be accomodated by river travel. I have not followed the entire system, all the way to the Atlantic, but this is like using the Danube for commerce, all the way from Germany to the Black Sea. Are you getting the implications here with regard to economic independence with the rest of Bolivia?

With the absolute cultural differences between the European lowlands and the AmerIndian highlands, the entire stage is set for a complete break, and another addition to the number of independent states as the world continues to downsize into smaller entities. I am going to follow this very closely in the future. And just think, all this done in the name of Collectivist Socialism.Wink1

[Image: bocolor.gif]
And finally.

Here is the map of Brazil. See how the entire Bolivian riverine system, minus two moving south through Parqguay, comes together at the top right boundary and becomes the River Medeiro, and the rest is down hill from there.

[Image: brnewzzl.gif]
I believe that the European lowlands has a definate advantage over the AmerIndian/Socialist highland, because the wealth is held there. Further, I did not realize the significance of the river system and it's size. I see a very good way for trade to move up and down the river, certainly easier than moving over the Andies.

If the European lowlands decides to be serious about breaking away from the poor/AmerIndian uplands, they will win out in the end. It may be bloody, but the end result favours them. Personally, the odds are better than even that Bolivia is in the opening stages of dividing into two distinct countries.

Others are sure to follow.
John L Wrote:I believe that the European lowlands has a definate advantage over the AmerIndian/Socialist highland, because the wealth is held there. Further, I did not realize the significance of the river system and it's size. I see a very good way for trade to move up and down the river, certainly easier than moving over the Andies.

If the European lowlands decides to be serious about breaking away from the poor/AmerIndian uplands, they will win out in the end. It may be bloody, but the end result favours them. Personally, the odds are better than even that Bolivia is in the opening stages of dividing into two distinct countries.

Others are sure to follow.
---------------------------------------
Well....

The lowlands of Bolivia are not European.

But there are quite a few of European descent (mainly Germans) living in Paraguay as well as those lowland provinces of Bolivia and nearby provinces of Brazil.

But the majority of the population is of Indian origin. The Europeans came there in the 19th and 20th century and opened up farms in the rainforest jungle. Farms that we in the IPCC want to close now to let the rainforest be reimplemented as a carbon sink....

/track_snake
track_snake Wrote:Well....

The lowlands of Bolivia are not European.

But there are quite a few of European descent (mainly Germans) living in Paraguay as well as those lowland provinces of Bolivia and nearby provinces of Brazil.

But the majority of the population is of Indian origin. The Europeans came there in the 19th and 20th century and opened up farms in the rainforest jungle. Farms that we in the IPCC want to close now to let the rainforest be reimplemented as a carbon sink....

/track_snake

No, No, No, T_S. In the lowlands, the majority are European in descent, and outnumber AmerIndians there. The Majority of the citizens, AmerIndians live in the highlands. You are not catching the demographics.

Please reread the paragraph that Stratfor wrote, and I posted above in my first post above.
John L Wrote:
track_snake Wrote:Well....

The lowlands of Bolivia are not European.

But there are quite a few of European descent (mainly Germans) living in Paraguay as well as those lowland provinces of Bolivia and nearby provinces of Brazil.

But the majority of the population is of Indian origin. The Europeans came there in the 19th and 20th century and opened up farms in the rainforest jungle. Farms that we in the IPCC want to close now to let the rainforest be reimplemented as a carbon sink....

/track_snake

No, No, No, T_S. In the lowlands, the majority are European in descent, and outnumber AmerIndians there. The Majority of the citizens, AmerIndians live in the highlands. You are not catching the demographics.

Please reread the paragraph that Stratfor wrote, and I posted above in my first post above.
-----------------------------
Well...

I doubt that because not so many left Europe for those provinces. What did they do to the American Indians who lived in the jungle? I suppose they hired many of them to work on their farms. About 15% of Bolivia's presentday-population of slightly more than 9 million are whites while 30% are mixed (mestizos). And those live mostly in those lowland provinces.

Of course I agree with you that the bulk of the American Indians are living in the highlands.

/track_snake
If their natives are like ours,most of the mixed ones are culturally Europeans.

I wonder,why are the natives into socialist think? What causes that?

It is obvious they are poorer and less well educated,but how is it a human in 2007 can think that idea increases wealth?
Palladin Wrote:If their natives are like ours,most of the mixed ones are culturally Europeans.

I wonder,why are the natives into socialist think? What causes that?

It is obvious they are poorer and less well educated,but how is it a human in 2007 can think that idea increases wealth?

GetEvenWithEmIsm.
John L Wrote:Let me print here what I stated earlier, on the Moderator Section, Michael's Stratfor piece of the same thing, only more detailed.

Stratfor stated,

Quote:The four Bolivian lowland departments of Santa Cruz, Tarija, Beni and Pando declared autonomy Dec. 15, setting the stage for more clashes between the largely poor and indigenously populated western highlands and the richer, European-descended lowlanders of the East.

[Image: bolivia.JPG]

Holy Cow Batman! I really did not realize that there was so much of Bolivia in Amazon River Basin. I thought most of it to be Andean in elevation. I just looked at a topographical map of Bolivia and Brazil, and I see that the Rio Madeiro empties directly into the Amazon, and on to the Atlantic. Looks like a great commercial route for a newly independent area.

I figured this may well lead to an eventual declaration of independence, but commercial access via river commerce is indeed a viable one here.

Viva La Revolución!!
What leaves us with the question where the Rio Madeiro emptied to before they declared autonomy, and what were the great commercial routes until a couple of days ago? Presumably over the snowcapped Andes, I guess, then via Pacific, Red Sea, Mediterranean and Atlantic to the Amazon.
Does Morales have or seek nucular weapons?
John,

OK,envy,but even with that,why would a rationale human imagine socialism will assist YOU? It will harm the other,but it will not assist the native.

Do they know this and don't care? Or are they deluded?
Palladin Wrote:John,

OK,envy,but even with that,why would a rationale human imagine socialism will assist YOU? It will harm the other,but it will not assist the native.

Do they know this and don't care? Or are they deluded?

Oh, I'm sure it is the later.................along with ignorance too. Socialism NEVER works; never has, never will. But it sounds Sooooo wonderful. It's like the Ponzi Scheme. So easy to get rich quick. With the right person, or persons, hyping the scam, huge numbers will go along, because they really want to believe it's viability.

It is the ultimate Utopian Dream, not to come true. And if it comes true for one, then it will be at the expense of many others. And remember almost all those poor indians there are totally uneducated, and can't even read or write. They are in such desperation that they will grasp onto anything that promises them a better life.

It's a damned shame, and every school in the world should have a complete critique as to how Collectivism fails Everyone. But I am not going to hold my breath any time soon.
John,

I assume they feel left out and socialism will at least share with them a portion of the economic pie. Sometimes,cultural causes make folks think weird.

A well educated human with a brain knows socialism is deadly to wealth across the spectrum.
John L Wrote:
Palladin Wrote:John,

OK,envy,but even with that,why would a rationale human imagine socialism will assist YOU? It will harm the other,but it will not assist the native.

Do they know this and don't care? Or are they deluded?

Oh, I'm sure it is the later.................along with ignorance too. Socialism NEVER works; never has, never will. But it sounds Sooooo wonderful. It's like the Ponzi Scheme. So easy to get rich quick. With the right person, or persons, hyping the scam, huge numbers will go along, because they really want to believe it's viability.

It is the ultimate Utopian Dream, not to come true. And if it comes true for one, then it will be at the expense of many others. And remember almost all those poor indians there are totally uneducated, and can't even read or write. They are in such desperation that they will grasp onto anything that promises them a better life.

It's a damned shame, and every school in the world should have a complete critique as to how Collectivism fails Everyone. But I am not going to hold my breath any time soon.
-------------------------------
Well...

There are many around this world who are happy with socialism. Let them be happy if they want. You don't need to take their happiness from them.

Let there be a freedom of faith in politics as well as there is in religion. I am not urging you to convert to muslim belief so you should not urge anyone to convert from their belief in socialism if they have....

/track_snake
Track,

Which state has had consistent socialist economy for a generation and the people are satisfied to remain the same?
Palladin Wrote:Track,

Which state has had consistent socialist economy for a generation and the people are satisfied to remain the same?
-------------------------------
Well...

People want to have a change after a period of time. But look at Europe for example where the Social Democrats are strong in many countries and people want them back after enjoying 'liberal experiments' for some time.

Let everyone be free to have his own political faith....

/track_snake
John L Wrote:
Palladin Wrote:John,

OK,envy,but even with that,why would a rationale human imagine socialism will assist YOU? It will harm the other,but it will not assist the native.

Do they know this and don't care? Or are they deluded?

Oh, I'm sure it is the later.................along with ignorance too. Socialism NEVER works; never has, never will. But it sounds Sooooo wonderful. It's like the Ponzi Scheme. So easy to get rich quick. With the right person, or persons, hyping the scam, huge numbers will go along, because they really want to believe it's viability.

It is the ultimate Utopian Dream, not to come true. And if it comes true for one, then it will be at the expense of many others. And remember almost all those poor indians there are totally uneducated, and can't even read or write. They are in such desperation that they will grasp onto anything that promises them a better life.

It's a damned shame, and every school in the world should have a complete critique as to how Collectivism fails Everyone. But I am not going to hold my breath any time soon.
John, the outstanding mind of this forum is absolutely right, GetEvenWithEmIsm and cOlLeCtIvIsM are the fundamental evils of this world. We had too much of socialist style, individualism sapping false nostrums in human history. Maternalism and state socialism did a great deal of harm to Bolivia as well. They stifle initiative, cramp and cripple the mental and spiritual energies of the people. Bolivia has suffered enough from hundreds of years of Morales-style socialism, it led to nothing but poverty. High time to replace GetEvenWithEmism with rugged individualism.
quadrat Wrote:High time to replace GetEvenWithEmism with rugged individualism.

If I did not know you to be the resident Heyoka/Contrary, I would be heartened by this statement. S2

However, I am all the more confused by it. Shock
Track,

No European state has had socialism since the late 1960s,they eschewed it,that's what I meant. Socialism kills wealth,capitalism creates new wealth. Sweden is fleeing fast from it,they were the last refuge of it.

The European social democrats are economic fascists(understood as the state assisting specific industry),not socialists. No thinking human believes state ownership of assets creates new wealth.

These specific Indians had they hegemony(which they don't) could have 1 generation of somewhat enhanced welfare as they stole from the ethnic Europeans there,but when there is nothing left to steal,they have nothing left,not even what they have today.
Pages: 1 2