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Full Version: Spengler on Turkey and Her Neighbors
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Could Turkey be in for a civil war eventually themselves? Or is Spengler an extremist like me? I do agree,there is no such thing as "moderate Islam",you either believe it's basics or ya don't.


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Let's just divide up Iraq and get it over with. The Turks hate us anyway, so why try to pander to them any longer, right?
Quote:Turkey’s Islamists are not moderates; they are Islamists, and they despise the United States for religious and cultural reasons, as much as Turkish nationalists despise the United States for making Turkey into a laboratory rat for religious reform.

Quote:In 2000, 52% of Turks expressed a favorable view of the United States.

Quote:In June 2007, the Pew Research Center polled citizens of 47 countries on their attitude toward the US. Turkey turned up at rock bottom, with 83% of respondents holding an unfavorable view of the United States and only 9% of Turks expressing a favorable view
Conclusion: Spengler need a doctor, if he can't understand - Turks became dissapointed in US because of some events that happened between 2000 and 2007. Would they "hate for religious and cultural reasons", they would hate in 2000 as well.
One of the events that caused detoriation in relations between USA and Turkey was the "hood event" which became basis for the 2006 Turkish film Valley of the Wolves.
Eleven Turkish soldiers including one colonel and two majors stationed in Iraq were arrested, hoods placed over their heads, beaten by the American soldiers, paraded through Kurdish neighboorhoods and spitted on and kicked by the onlookers.
In Turkey insulting military becomes a very serous incident, and this incident and handling of it caused at least 50% drop in the popularity of USA in Turkey.

From Wikipedia
Quote:The Hood Event (Çuval Olayı in Turkish) was an incident on July 4, 2003 following the 2003 invasion of Iraq where a group of Turkish military personnel operating in northern Iraq were captured, led away with hoods over their heads, and interrogated by the United States military. The soldiers were released after sixty hours, after Turkey protested to the United States.

Though neither side ever apologized, a US-Turkish commission set up to investigate the incident later issued a joint statement of regret. In addition, US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld wrote a letter to the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan expressing sorrow over the incident. The "Hood Event" damaged diplomatic relations between Turkey and the United States and marked a low point in US-Turkish relations. While the incident received comparatively little coverage in the United States, it was a major event in Turkey, many of whose citizens saw it as a deliberate insult and nicknamed it "The Hood Event". It later became the basis for the 2006 Turkish film Valley of the Wolves Iraq.
bh Wrote:Conclusion: Spengler need a doctor, if he can't understand - Turks became dissapointed in US because of some events that happened between 2000 and 2007. Would they "hate for religious and cultural reasons", they would hate in 2000 as well.

Spengler does provide an answer: promotion of "mild Islam" by the Junior's gang.

It is not obvious that his answer is correct -- I think the Iraqi war had a larger contribution to the change of the attitude toward the US -- but that this promotion was as misguided as most steps of the current administration is beyond doubts.

One really stupid point by Spengler is

Spengler Wrote:Partition implies the realization of Turkey's worst nightmare (and one of the nastier nightmares for Iran and Syria), namely an independent Kurdish state with its capital at Kirkuk, the "Kurdish Jerusalem", sitting on abundant oil revenues.
Partition implies the realization of Turkey's worst nightmare (and one of the nastier nightmares for Iran and Syria), namely an independent Kurdish state with its capital at Kirkuk, the "Kurdish Jerusalem", sitting on abundant oil revenues.

Partition is not a nightmare for Iran: it gets to dominate Southern Iraq which has most of the oil resources and which will be used as a springboard into the Gulf and Saudi Arabia. It is not clear why it will be a nightmare for Syria either. But for Turkey -- yep.
mv Wrote:I think the Iraqi war had a larger contribution to the change of the attitude toward the US
... and not in Turkey only. The same happened in many european countries.
The "mild Islam promotion" thing doesn't really wash with me either because I recall reading that we hoped as far back as 1991 that Turkey's "moderate Islam"(really,what is that????) would be a good influence on Central Asians as opposed to Khomeini's "radical Islam" and that it was a competition we sided with Turkey on.

That I recall vividly right after the cold war during Bush sr. days. The truth is we sided with Turkey's official atheism as opposed to Islam,I do agree with Spengler that you either believe the tenets or you do not.

In all likelihood,the Iraqi invasion caused most the hostility in Turkey.

As far as "dividing up Iraq",how on earth could we accomplish that? If it is seperated,it won't be due to American ability it happens. It will be because Kurds become so powerful they can protect their new found independence from all their neighbors which will have to include an air and sea corridor which no one is going to give them. I can't see that happening.
Quote:Conclusion: Spengler need a doctor...
Rather the coup de grâce. Palladin, did you notice the further contents on the page that reproduced Spenglers last slime? Did you follow this link,

[Image: horo_300.gif]

which led you eventually here?

[Image: eva00000.png]
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Also,let's don't forget the more important story here from Spengler's polemic which I do think has validity and that is a looming civil war between Muslims and agnostics/atheists in Turkey.

I think it is a matter of time only. The reason I think it is a certainty is Muslims are not going to allow much longer the state to be conducted as if it were an infidel state,which is how it has been governed since WWI.

Add to this the fact that it is fairly well established Muslims outnumber the agnostics/atheists anymore.

For today's news,it appears Turkey is engaged in limited war efforts on the Iraq side of the border. My question is what good is the "camp bombing"? Anyone stupid enough to be in a "camp" that Turkey was aware of would already be dead from stupidity,just like Bin Laden's bunch weren't hanging around when Carter bombed them in 98:

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Palladin,
Islam has been around for 1,400 years, how it comes you care so much about them for just the last five or six of them? I mean, I remember the good ole days when we atheists joked about the nuts who could not determine which one is the best God and waged wars for that rubbish, but that seemed to be a remote past. There were no Muslims in the news, what exactly they alledgedly believe, and what Mohammed did, nobody knew at the West. When a Maroccan commited a crime he was a Moroccan, not a Muslim. There was no hate against them. They were unknown. Another world.
How did it all come back and even infect a smart man like you? Is it really that those poor people have started a war against us, or is it a sideeffect of you invading their world?
Quad,

I could care less about Islam or any other religion or their adherents spiritually,but I hate Islam uniquely and it hasn't been just since 9-11. It started back in the 1980s when I would read of Muslims murdering Jewish civilians in the 1980s then they started on us in the early 80s,too.

After 9-11,as I read,it occurred to me Muslims do this to everyone they come in contact with.