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Quote:Time to end the charade

Every American president, beginning with Richard Nixon in the aftermath of the June 1967 Arab-Israeli war, has been tempted with the idea of an international conference on the Middle East for negotiating the final comprehensive settlement of the long festering conflict between Arabs and Jews.

Now entering the last year of his two terms in the Oval Office, President George W. Bush also has been similarly tempted.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has announced the United States will hold an international conference next month in Annapolis, Maryland, with the purpose of establishing a Palestinian state.

The history of such conferences is contrary to the promise of bringing an end to the Arab-Israeli dispute in the Middle East.

President Anwar Sadat of Egypt, recognizing the futility of such gatherings, nixed President Jimmy Carter's idea of an international Middle East conference in Geneva by going to Jerusalem in November 1977. There he engaged directly with prime minister Menachem Begin of Israel to reach an accord between their two states.

It is apparent that calling for an international conference on the Middle East to broker final settlement between Israelis and Palestinians is a default position of the American administrations when all the antecedent efforts have failed.

American administrations unfailingly have felt the obligation of being fair brokers between Arabs and Jews since William Rogers, the secretary of state in the Nixon administration, floated the idea of a comprehensive peace plan in 1969.

President Bill Clinton fruitlessly invested a great amount of his time -- even into the last weeks of his term in office -- to broker the final agreement between Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader, and Ehud Barak, the Israeli prime minister.

President Bush became the first American leader to openly call for a Palestinian state when he presented a timetable and clearly stated plan for Palestinians to follow in reaching their goal.

But the truth of the matter is that there is nothing to broker when one party, the Palestinians and their Arab-Muslim financiers and supporters, remains committed to the destruction of the other party, the Israelis.

Instead of another international conference the Americans would do better in accepting the obvious -- that a Palestinian state exists, and it is called Jordan with its population being overwhelmingly Palestinian.

Another Arab state squeezed on American insistence between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean -- its population hostile to the West and readily embracing every passing totalitarian ideology in its declared aim of harming Jews and destroying Israel -- instead of being a recipe for any final settlement, will be the source of unremitting conflict in the region and terrorism beyond.

Moreover, Palestinians killing each other while continuing to be supportive of terrorism -- in addition to the appalling record of Arab-Muslim regimes disregarding human rights and respect for minorities -- make them undeserving of the amount of attention provided by American administrations in contrast to the level of American support extended to the equal, if not more deserving, claims of the people suffering in Darfur, Burma, Tibet and Zimbabwe. Diplomacy not infrequently is trading politely in falsehood.

It is time for Americans to politely tell the truth and end the charade of demanding Israeli concessions for Arab-Muslim doublespeak where "peace" means, as Arafat explained to his people, temporary truce in the war for "liberating" all of Palestine which includes Israel.

Unlike Europe whose Muslim population tends to be poorly educated and easily influenced, the majority of Muslims living in Canada is well educated and enjoys a middle or upper class lifestyle.
M. Mansur is absolutely correct when he makes the following statement:

Quote:Instead of another international conference the Americans would do better in accepting the obvious -- that a Palestinian state exists, and it is called Jordan with its population being overwhelmingly Palestinian.

Presidents never seem to learn. They honestly think they can solve this mess and garner a worthles Peace Prize for posterity. The Pals AND Arabs will seek peace when they finally realize that they have no chance of defeating the Jooos and there is no longer anything to be gained by huffin' and puffin' in order to give their poverty stricken citizens something with which to become emotionally attached, and overlook the fact that they are in poverty because of their leaders.

It's a 'no brainer', yet their egos will not allow them to see the cold hard truth staring them in the face, and Junior is no different.
Not only is junior not different,he is becoming worse than even Carter concerning pressuring Israel on behalf of Islamic terrorism. If he has his way,Israelis will die in the Med like flies.

I have never regretted a vote like I do with this CLOWN and that's being nice. I wish Gore had been elected in 2000 and I've never voted for a democrat for POTUS in my life.
Palladin Wrote:I wish Gore had been elected in 2000 and I've never voted for a democrat for POTUS in my life.

Bite your tongue. Course they are all the same really.
I don't go along with Patrick on this. Patrick has a lifetime job at ORNL, so recessions don't affect him like they do me. I'm self-employed and depend on people, having money, and nspending it on beautiful things for their home.

If Algore had been president, he would have tried to raise taxes, and impose goverment regs(as in more money) on us to combat all this 'so called' AGW.

And worse, at least two Supreme Court judges would most likely be just like Ruth Ginsberg, the courts would be passing Collectivist decisions, just like the 9th Circus Court. G-d help us if this happens.

I can't stand what Junior has done in the last four years, but Algore would be infinately worse. Heaven help us!

Patrick is flat wrong here, in a HUGE WAY!! Sorry Patrick, but you are so wrong I hate to think of the consequences. Shock
John L Wrote:I can't stand what Junior has done in the last four years, but Algore would be infinately worse. Heaven help us!

Guys, Bush is not junior. Al Gore is.
Despite my total loss of excitement about Junior, I really doubt that Gore would have done any better. Or Kerry.
(I voted 3rd party in 2000, and the only reason I voted for Junior in 2004 was that I could not swallow Kerry...

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Here is something for your consideration.

While Junior pretends to be a Reagan-reincarnate, the best historical analogy is with Nixon.
I'll not dive into the war analogy, but the analogy with economy seriously bothers me. I think that just like Nixon, Junior is preparing for a major economic disaster and runaway inflation...for the next Potus to deal with.

It may be a sign of Junior's brilliance: he is setting up Hillary to become a Carter-reincarnate and insure that his legacy will remain strong in the shadow of the forthcoming Hillary's economic collapse.

But I'm worried.....Late Carter-Early Reagan period was not the nicest time to live in.
Quote:Unlike Europe whose Muslim population tends to be poorly educated and easily influenced, the majority of Muslims living in Canada is well educated and enjoys a middle or upper class lifestyle.
Warbicycle,
well, they do the dirty work for us, say like cleaning the toilets. Are you saying you are cleaning their toilets because they manage to become upper class in the blink of an eye? Honestly, if I were you, I wouldn't brag about it.
Quote:that a Palestinian state exists, and it is called Jordan with its population being overwhelmingly Palestinian.
We must not forget that a state with overwhelming Jewish population also exists, in God's realm, called paradise. The perfect state. What's wrong with Muslims assisting Jews to go home? :lol:
This oft-quoted conclusion is old hash and an integral part of Israeli political propaganda:

Quote:Instead of another international conference the Americans would do better in accepting the obvious -- that a Palestinian state exists, and it is called Jordan with its population being overwhelmingly Palestinian.

Beyond the dynastic implications to the Jordanian monarchy or the resurrection of the old promises made to the Hashemites between 1915-1919, events immediate to the conclusion of WW I pretty-well set a geographic delimitation to the "Palestinian Mandate": the left bank of the Jordan. Further, the notion that Jordan is Palestine resolves nothing with regard to the West Bank/Cisjordania. Hence, the notion is really a Trojan Horse laying the groundwork for the transportation of the mainly Arab populations from Cisjordania to Transjordania! In effect, nothing has changed with respect to Golda Meir's 1969 assertion: "There was no such thing as Palestinians [in history]...It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."

If one is bluntly honest, the notion of Pan-Arabism (of which this "Jordan as Palestine" shtick is but a corollary) died a quick death among Palestinians during the years of the British Protectorate (1921-1948). That it is the Eretz Israel grouping, as voiced in the Knesset by Binyamin Elon since 1996, that uses the sleight-of-hand that is the Palestinian Jordan illusion should give one pause. Guess what folks, the residents of the West Bank do not buy it (after all it is an ingenious "expulsion order" inverting all that has gone before) and any who look upon this nonsense as an avenue to solution are more than suspect.
quadrat Wrote:
Quote:Unlike Europe whose Muslim population tends to be poorly educated and easily influenced, the majority of Muslims living in Canada is well educated and enjoys a middle or upper class lifestyle.
Warbicycle,
well, they do the dirty work for us, say like cleaning the toilets. Are you saying you are cleaning their toilets because they manage to become upper class in the blink of an eye? Honestly, if I were you, I wouldn't brag about it.
Quote:that a Palestinian state exists, and it is called Jordan with its population being overwhelmingly Palestinian.
We must not forget that a state with overwhelming Jewish population also exists, in God's realm, called paradise. The perfect state. What's wrong with Muslims assisting Jews to go home? :lol:

They hire Filipino house cleaners.
Quote:They hire Filipino house cleaners.
Warbicycle,
are you saying that in the order of men, crowned by the white race, Semites such as Jews and Arabs further down the ladder, there are actually people below Muslims, so called 'Filipinos'? They are good Christians, aren't they? How comes Christians are dumber than Muslims?
Apart from races with inherited features, there is of course another order, the one of intellect, or how you employ your inherited features. This order is topped by the atheist, than for a very long time nothing comes, and than the followers of various religions competing for the lowest step. The people who discovered they have a brain, but don't quite know what to do with it. Are you saying Muslims (you call them scumbags, I recall) are superior to Christians in the battle for this rung?
Quote:Unlike Europe whose Muslim population tends to be poorly educated and easily influenced, the majority of Muslims living in Canada is well educated and enjoys a middle or upper class lifestyle.
Ok, but how it comes that our followers of the religion of scumbags are poorly educated and easily influenced scumbags, but your followers of the religion of scumbags are smart enough to become upper class?
Unlike Europe that has a problem with poorly educated illegal Muslim migrants, we choose the well-educated secular ones. Many use Canada as a stepping-stone to the U.S., which accounts for why most US Muslims enjoy a middle or upper class lifestyle. Occasionally one shit-disturber slips through the cracks and we quickly deport them. Here's an example of a Muslim who contributes to Canadian society. Yet another example is Irshad Manji.
Now, what the heck is a secular Muslim? We don't have "illegal" Muslim migrants in Europe, invited by us they are there legally. You confuse this with that American propaganda by FOX. Do you have any idea why a Maroccan (or Iranian, or Tunisian, or whatever) Muslim criminal or illegal alien is always a "criminal Muslim", but a Mexican or Columbian (or whatever) Christian criminal or illegal alien is never a "criminal Christian"?
I watched them being rounded up carted off to jail at the Copenhagen airport. I doubt they were guest workers.
Might be like with the guy in your link here http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/ne...66f&k=9278 as long as the refugee status is checked they can stay legally, if revoked, they have to leave. I speculated a bit why our capital invites the poorly educated Muslims, and came to the conclusion, they do it because they're smart. After all, Germany is one of few nations that got rid of the local Jewish competition, which is quite resourceful. Poorly educated Muslims and poorly educated native Germans can bicker for all eternity about such essential questions whether Jesus is the legitimate son of God, and whether Muslim women can wear a veil in the proximity of Christian toilets. Their whole brain capacity occupied with such issues, they don't ponder why they both make a mere Euro 20,000 a year at Siemens, while the board makes a couple of millions each, and the owners somewhere in the billions, though the poorly educated Christians and Muslims create all the value. They would never organize together in a union, or socialist party in order to fight for a bigger share of the value which, I remind you, they create. Part and reign, the ancient law of politics.
To you, didn't you say you are a realtor? Self-employed, I guess, what sets you apart from the people who are employed, from your point of view. However, what money you make depends on what your customers can afford. Do you sell palaces to the capital? Or rather modest family homes to people who can afford a mortgage of $ 1,000 a month? In this case it might be in your interest if the palaces were somewhat smaller, and your customers could afford $ 2,000 a month for their home. In this case I would reason if the Muslim lifestyle is your greatest concern.
Q, this debate is getting strained, if not tortured. Value theories of labor and group dynamics notwithstanding, only schmucks treat people as groups rather than attend to the subjects on an individual basis. Here in Texas, yesterday, a jury refused to convict either the "Holy Land Foundation" or its 5 member governing board of any of the 197 individual charges touching upon "providing aid and comfort to the enemy" (Hamas) by collecting some $12 million for the support of hospitals and other charities run by the Zakats of the Gaza Strip. The government (along with its coterie of Israeli Intelligence witnesses appearing under pseudonymous identities) operated the prosecution under the "group" theory, and now we have the results of such thinking as a legal approach. It did not wash before a Texas jury (Dallas, no less) and as the NYTimes reported: "In the verdict, the jury said it failed to reach a decision on any of the charges against the charity and two of its main organizers, but acquitted three defendants on almost all counts."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/us/23charity.html?hp

Let us just say, we may "hang 'em high in Texas" but only in terms of individual misconduct and not for nebulous governmental legal theories.
Once again, I ended up not reading Quadrat's posts after getting through the first sentance. I am glad the rest of the world at least contains some sentient beings.

Moving along:

WarBicycle Wrote:Every American president, beginning with Richard Nixon in the aftermath of the June 1967 Arab-Israeli war, has been tempted with the idea of an international conference on the Middle East for negotiating the final comprehensive settlement of the long festering conflict between Arabs and Jews.

Not going to happen anyway - the divide between Jews and Arabs goes back too far and too deep. It's even mentioned in the Book of Gensis in the OT of the Bible, which the Koran claims to be an improvement on.

I don't even have to mention all the other problems facing our intrepid president besides simple religious issues.
There was an interesting brief exchange dealing with the Ups and Downs of diplomatic dumpster diving along the Levant Road:

Quote:WarBicycle wrote:
Every American president, beginning with Richard Nixon in the aftermath of the June 1967 Arab-Israeli war, has been tempted with the idea of an international conference on the Middle East for negotiating the final comprehensive settlement of the long festering conflict between Arabs and Jews.

Gunnen reacted:
Not going to happen anyway - the divide between Jews and Arabs goes back too far and too deep.

Therein the problem and we can all blame it on Dick Nixon and his overblown sense of diplomatic finesse. President Eisenhower--despite the Cold War mindset--elaborated an overall approach with regard to the Mid-East subsequent to the Suez Crisis, the Eisenhower Doctrine, which essentially was an inclusive commitment to defend any and all states in the region against aggression:

Quote:"...Our country supports without reservation the full sovereignty and independence of each and every nation of the Middle East.

The evolution to independence has in the main been a peaceful process. But the area has been often troubled. Persistent cross-currents of distrust and fear with raids back and forth across national boundaries have brought about a high degree of instability in much of the Mid East. just recently there have been hostilities involving Western European nations that once exercised much influence in the area. Also the relatively large attack by Israel in October has intensified the basic differences between that nation and its Arab neighbors.
...

The action which I propose would have the following features.

It would, first of all, authorize the United States to cooperate with and assist any nation or group of nations in the general area of the Middle East in the development of economic strength dedicated to the maintenance of national independence.

It would, in the second place, authorize the Executive to undertake in the same region programs of military assistance and cooperation with any nation or group of nations which desires such aid.

It would, in the third place, authorize such assistance and cooperation to include the employment of the armed forces of the United States to secure and protect the territorial integrity and political independence of such nations, requesting such aid, against overt armed aggression from any nation controlled by International Communism.

These measures would have to be consonant with the treaty obligations of the United States, including the Charter of the United Nations and with any action or recommendations of the United Nations. They would also, if armed attack occurs, be subject to the overriding authority of the United Nations Security Council in accordance with the Charter.

The silence of the Johnson Administration (and the spurning of the urgent pleas from Jordan's King Hussein) during 1967 prior to the pre-emptive Israeli attack on Egypt and Syria, subsequently made hash of this policy. And, beginning with the playing of the Egyptian card and the subsequent secret US commitment to guarantee the defense of Israel, regardless of circumstances (perhaps here lies the origins of Dick's colorful language on "Jews"), under the Nixon State Department made shambles of the US claim to "honest broker". The implicit placing of Israel under the US Nuclear Umbrella (again the Cold War mentality) carried grave implications, and therein the seed for today's language over Israel as US surrogate with regards to Iran.

All of the talk on "international conferences" notwithstanding, everyone seems to forget that such a panel has existed from the beginning and it goes by the name of the UN! The US recognized this reality under Eisenhower way back in 1957--fifty years ago now--and everything in the interim has been counterproductive and exacerbative.