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This is a split from a private discussion a few of us were having. We feel that the issue is very important, enough for everyone to participate.--Graff


Quote:Turkish Ambassador Nabi Sensoy was recalled from the United States on Oct. 11 after a U.S. House of Representatives committee passed a resolution that classifies the 1915 massacre of Armenians as genocide, Turkish NTV television company reported. Sensoy was recalled "for consultations," a Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman said. The Turkish naval commander also has canceled his U.S. visit.

Now, this was REALLY stupid of the House to do.
mv Wrote:
Quote:Turkish Ambassador Nabi Sensoy was recalled from the United States on Oct. 11 after a U.S. House of Representatives committee passed a resolution that classifies the 1915 massacre of Armenians as genocide, Turkish NTV television company reported. Sensoy was recalled "for consultations," a Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman said. The Turkish naval commander also has canceled his U.S. visit.

Now, this was REALLY stupid of the House to do.

Of course it's utterly stupid. The House is run by a bunch of Jackasses, don't you know? All this utopian, pie-in-the-sky baloney about civil liberties is just an excuse to show others that they REALLY are true humanitarians. It is to show everyone that the really CARE about things, they claim to be experts about. Who gives a "Tinker's Damn" about results. it's symbolism over substance that rules them.

Unfortunately all this will get you misunderstood, and cause friends, sort of friends and casual observers to look unkindly on your politicial wrangeling. These people are definately trying to play poker with a Pinochle deck.

Your hard earned tax dollars at work. Shock
The jackasses managed to chose the worst possible moment too.

I'm not so sure that the Turks screwing around in N.Iraq are going to be helpful to anyone...not even to Armenians.
mv Wrote:The jackasses managed to chose the worst possible moment too.

I'm not so sure that the Turks screwing around in N.Iraq are going to be helpful to anyone...not even to Armenians.

That's why they are Jackasses. I'm always amazed at their innate ability to step in a pile of sh!t , each and every time. Place the pile in a corner that is on the opposite side of a doorway, and is geared to lengthen the odds to infinity, and they will STILL step in it. Shock 8)
I might be wrong,but I think the current vote is only a committee vote,not the house. I would think if the house doesn't follow through,all will be well.

Armenians play a large role in California politics,simple as that. I can't see democrats in most the nation caring to alienate Turkey this way,but we'll soon know. Many Republicans are voting for this measure ,too.
It is a committee vote indeed, and Bush already promised a veto.

Still, Turks see this is a betrayal and insult.
MV,

I understand they do see it that way and I guess it is an insult,but it is likely close to factual. Not that I support it at all,it's ignorant,vacuous and harmful to our nation,but there was a terrible massacre that Turks perped back then.

Maybe the Armenians did much the same with less ability(that's the way I saw the Bosnian thing on each side),but the truth is there was a human rights violation in Turkey in the WWI era that is breath taking. Was it holocaust? No,not in my opinion,but was it heartless,grand in scale and nihilistic?

Yes,it was and Turks know it was and Turks don't want to discuss this because it messes with their nationalism myth. If keeping good relations with Turks means we are obligated to accept their myths,screw Turkey.
Palladin Wrote:If keeping good relations with Turks means we are obligated to accept their myths,screw Turkey.

Not at all, in my understanding.

It is simply that if you want to have friends (or working relations), you don't go out of your way to offend them.

If your friend was suspected of manslaughter in his youth, many years ago, it is really not your job to talk about it...especially with a loudspeaker.

This was an issue that we simply did not have to comment on.
mv Wrote:
Palladin Wrote:If keeping good relations with Turks means we are obligated to accept their myths,screw Turkey.

Not at all, in my understanding.

It is simply that if you want to have friends (or working relations), you don't go out of your way to offend them.

If your friend was suspected of manslaughter in his youth, many years ago, it is really not your job to talk about it...especially with a loudspeaker.

This was an issue that we simply did not have to comment on.

I concur here. Remember it is the perceived threat that is oft more important than the actual one. The former SSR is a great example. The US perceived it to be far more capable than it was, and we wound up spending more money and other resources in an attempt to stem what they were not capable of delivering.

Turkey perceives the US Congress, and it represents the citizenry, as being hostile toward it. The look at our hostility toward Islam and this further adds to the fire. While I don't accept their later view, we would be going a long way to neutralizing this by not hurling verbal insults their way.

This is abject stupitidy and part and parcel of what one gets when a Jackass is running the show. Who cares whether or not this becomes a law, the damage is already done. Thank you Nancy Pelosi, you Jackass!
Oh,I already made the point I agree this act was stupendously insane and irresponsible,my point simply is Turkey did do this thing and they don't want to face what their grandparents did. It's like me being unwilling to admit we Americans really did hold millions of folks as slaves,same difference to me.
I really think that this thread should be in the general forum, it is that significant. Rush today was livid about it, and he is positive that this is a deliberate attempt to cause us to lose this war in Iraq. He may well be right.

Why don't you move it Michael?
That was a committee vote, it means that it's approved to move on to the House floor for a vote by all 435 members of the House.

After that, it must then be referred to the Senate, where a Senate committee will agree/disagree with the contents and pass it on to the Senate floor for a vote by all 100 Senators. If passed, then it will go to another committee which will work out any differences between the House and Senate versions.

Then it goes to the president for signature. President could veto the bill unless it was passed by 2/3 majority in both Senate and House which makes it veto-proof.

I think Turkey is overreacting to this commite vote. Perhaps they want to show how seiously Turkey is taking this issue so that Turkish views also will be considered in the future votings.
On this issue, the Turks always overreact. There was quite an uproar when some Jewish group in the US decided to recognize the Armenian events as a genocide.

But I don't think what Turks are doing is designed to only influence the Congress, it is beginning to look that they are actually going to move into N.Iraq, whatever the US may say.


Just in:

Wash Post: Premier Says Turkey Is Ready For Split With U.S. Over Kurds

And Erdogan blames ...

Quote:"Democrats are harming the future of the United States and are encouraging anti-American sentiments," Erdogan said Friday, referring to Democratic Party leaders who supported the measure.

Where is the committee vote stats? Was it really a rodent-mostly vote?
IBD: When Amateurs Make Foreign Policy

The article is pretty much what John and I were saying already, but it is still worth reading.

Quote:...
the timing of this resolution simply stinks, and we're made to wonder if this isn't some Democrats' way of making President Bush's Middle East policy even harder to implement.

Americans might not realize it, but Turkey is strategically indispensable. About 70% of our flights into Iraq come from our Turkish base at Incirlik. About 30% of our fuel comes from there.
....
No wonder Turkey is furious — talking even of shutting down Incirlik, which would cost the U.S. war effort in Iraq dearly and could even delay what appears to be a likely victory there.

This is where the Democrats' foreign-policy meddling and incompetence will get us: echoes of Jimmy Carter, who embarked on a badly-thought-out human rights campaign as the Soviet Union gobbled up more territory around the world.

Democrats style themselves as highly intellectual, nuanced global thinkers. But both in Congress and on the campaign trail they've shown themselves to be a bunch of bumbling, foreign-policy-challenged amateurs. Is this the best they can do?

Someone on another forum noticed: Al Qaeda showed a lot of wisdom on Sept. 11, 2001 when they didn’t crash an airplane into the Capitol building..... true.
mv Wrote:Someone on another forum noticed: Al Qaeda showed a lot of wisdom on Sept. 11, 2001 when they didn’t crash an airplane into the Capitol building..... true.

How true. They would have killed too many of their willing accomplices: Jackasses!
It's almost a given the Senate wouldn't vote for this. I doubt the House will either honestly. I also think Erdogan's & co. comments are aimed at influencing votes and not in seriously stating we're going to invade Iraq.

That decision,once taken,removes Turkey from the western alliance for all intents and purposes and maybe the USA as well as NATO will have been formally destroyed. You cannot have war between alliance members and have an alliance,not when 1 of the warriors is the USA who is the far most important member.
Quote:You cannot have war between alliance members

This is an interesting point indeed. But you may not have a war: there are very few US troops in N.Iraq, US can retreat and avoid a direct engagement. (And likely will).
A bill permitting Turkish Military to act as they deem fit in N. Iraq will be submitted to the Turkish Parliament on coming Tuesday. If it passes, and it is almost certain that it will pass, decision for incursion into N.Iraq will be out of hands of politicians and on the hands of military. It seems like there is a big pressure from people to military to take all the necessary action to end PKK terrorism.
In just one day, 15,000 young men and women volunteered to enlist into Turkish Special Forces and participate in the efforts to end PKK terrorism.
Kamil,

So,if it's that easy,why has the PKK been burdening Turkey going on half a century now? Has everyone been asleep?

MV,

Sure,we can avoid conflict with Turkey if we desire,but we can't do that and remain a credible power. If they invade Iraq and we're the guarantor of Iraq's sovereignty(and we are for the foreseeable future),we just lost a lot more than Kurdistan stability.

There wasn't much sense in starting this war if you're going to allow a formal ally to mess up your game plan it seems to me.
According to Debka, Kamil is correct and no move into N.Iraq will occur.

Palladin,

Do you propose we do fight Turkey? I have a feeling it has a considerably stronger army than Iran...
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