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I wonder if Russians will be helping Iranians to operate this system until Iranians gain experience?
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Ivanov: Russia completes air defense system deliveries to Iran
Jan 16 2007

MOSCOW, January 16 (RIA Novosti) - Russia has completed deliveries of Tor-M1 anti-aircraft missile systems to Iran, the defense minister said Tuesday.

"We have supplied modern anti-aircraft short-range missile systems under a contract. Iran is not under any sanctions," Sergei Ivanov said, adding that Moscow will continue to develop military and technical cooperation with Tehran.

Russia undertook to supply 29 Tor-M1 missiles to Iran under a $700 million contract signed at the end of 2005. The United States protested the deal, which it feared could bolster the military capabilities of the Islamic Republic, classified by Washington as a "rogue state" and part of "the axis of evil."

Russia has insisted that the contract for the delivery of the Tor-M1 missiles to Iran was concluded in line with international law, and that the system is intended for defense purposes only.

Last December, the UN Security Council adopted a revised version of a resolution to punish Tehran for its refusal to its halt uranium enrichment, but Russia managed to uphold its economic interests and ensured the implementation of its earlier signed contracts with Iran, including on the construction of a light-water reactor in Bushehr and the delivery of the Tor-M1 and S-300 air defense systems.

The Tor-M1, developed by the Russian company Almaz-Antei, is a high-precision missile system designed to destroy aircraft, manned or unmanned, and cruise missiles flying at an altitude of up to 10 kilometers (6 miles). It was introduced at the Russian aerospace show MAKS in 2005.

Related, but older article on this subject is at: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060419/46622413.html
If the system is akin to that of what the Syrians posessed before the 1982 war, the Iranians may wish to buttress it with another system, as backup.

Perhaps there is a plus to this: Russians get more funds; and Iranians get a temporary false sense of security. Wink1
I'm sure the missile technology has improved in Russia since 1980s.
I don't exactly understand the "29 Tor-M1 missiles" statement of the article. Is 29 part of the model number, or is it the quantity of missiles supplied?
Quote:Russia undertook to supply 29 Tor-M1 missiles to Iran under a $700 million contract signed at the end of 2005.
If it is quantity of 29, they could be quickly used up by drowns and other unmanned projectiles.
Kamil Wrote:I'm sure the missile technology has improved in Russia since 1980s.
I don't exactly understand the "29 Tor-M1 missiles" statement of the article. Is 29 part of the model number, or is it the quantity of missiles supplied?
Quote:Russia undertook to supply 29 Tor-M1 missiles to Iran under a $700 million contract signed at the end of 2005.
If it is quantity of 29, they could be quickly used up by drowns and other unmanned projectiles.

What they are really talking about are that 29(twenty-Nine) Tor-M1 mobile units are being delivered.

[Image: torm1-3.jpg]

One thing to remember. If the Russians have improved the systems, as I am certain they have, the other side has most assuridly done same. The question is: how good is the Russian system, compared to the NATO/Israeli systems? My guess: it is not up to standard, if compared one on one. Of course, $700 million will not get you the equal number of Western items, that's for sure.

Kamil, do you believe in the "Get what you pay for" equation?
I think all of us learn very quicly that we get what we paid for S2

Probably Iranians were not thinking of cost saving when they bought this defense sytem. It was the only available system that they could buy.
Kamil Wrote:I think all of us learn very quicly that we get what we paid for S2

Probably Iranians were not thinking of cost saving when they bought this defense sytem. It was the only available system that they could buy.
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What about the Chinese? Don't they have any good systems now for sale on the international market? The Chinese are as likely to strike deals with Iran as Russia.

/track_snake
I think they are too busy purchasing goodies from Russia, at bargain prices. Wink1
John L Wrote:I think they are too busy purchasing goodies from Russia, at bargain prices. Wink1

At this time, the amount that China spends on Research is second only to the US (this has been reported a couple of months ago). But it would take time until research translates into high-quality weapon systems. Probably a few years, and that is only assuming that China's development continues without any massive economic problems as St. keeps promising.

Right now most of China's weapon export is old stuff, on bargain prices.

Some of the new Russian hardware, otoh, does look pretty impressive.... Extra $ from oil profits surely had an effect.
mv Wrote:
John L Wrote:I think they are too busy purchasing goodies from Russia, at bargain prices. Wink1

At this time, the amount that China spends on Research is second only to the US (this has been reported a couple of months ago). But it would take time until research translates into high-quality weapon systems. Probably a few years, and that is only assuming that China's development continues without any massive economic problems as St. keeps promising.

Michael, if I recall correctly, ST forecast the coming PRC economic shutdown at the end of their highly visible show, the 2008 Olympics. China will continue to put up a good face until thing.
Stratfor *always* forecasts a Chinese economic disaster.... in terms of high-tech weapon export it seems that China needs a few more years to become a factor even under the best conditions, so this may not even materialize.

China is also less political than Russia right now. Sales to Iran are driven not just by money, but also by the desire to complicate the situation for the US. Today, this is the game that Chinese don't play but Russians do.
Russia always believed in building a serviceable piece of equipment that could get the job done and then build immense numbers of them to overcome the deficiency in quality as compared to Western military equipment. Having said this, I still think Russian Su-34 and Mig-33 jets are on par if not superior to Western jets in most areas save avionics. Just think if you could refit a Su-34 with F-22 Raptor avionics? That would be one heck of a platform to contend with. It's a good thing Russia cannot afford to mass produce their weapons on the scale they did under the Soviet regime. But what happens when the Chinese and the Iranians start to invest heavily in Russian factories to ramp up production again? If the Middle East continues to polarize the world as it is doing now, we could see a new Sino-Russian military alliance to offset American and Israeli geo-political influence. :?
I heard these defense missiles don't go high enough. We can go right through them and bomb the crap out of them. I eagerly await Bush's response to Iran and Syria. ISG wanted to talk with the enemy, I say our missiles should have written messages on them. "Diplomacy Bombs", Ahmadinijad likes men", "The Ayatola is a 89 year old virgin", "Size matters".
"Kill probabilities are quoted as:"
0.92-0.95 against aircraft
0.80-0.96 against helicopters
0.60-0.90 against cruise missiles (with an effective range of around 5 km/3 miles)
0.70-0.90 against precision munitions (LGBs, glide bombs, etc.)
0.90 against UAVs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOR-M1
"The computer control of the Tor system is a giant leap for Soviet\Russian technology. The digital computers allow for a high degree of automation, similar to the US Patriot missile system. Target threat classification is automatic and the system can be operated with little input from operators required, if desired. This is one reason for the high degree of accuracy, ability to intercept small, fast and highly maneuverable targets, and the very fast reaction times of the system."

Let the Israelis have a try and sack the next general.
I can say with confidence that whatever systems Iran employs, not one of them will knock one of these birds out of the sky:

[Image: f22.jpg]

We could also just as easily let loose a few thousand salvoes of Cruise Missles followed by an armada of UAVs equipped with Hellfires to pick off any stragglers...
quadrat Wrote:"Kill probabilities are quoted as:"
0.92-0.95 against aircraft which kind? kind of a bland statement there, guy.
0.80-0.96 against helicopters i doubt we would use helicopters to attack Irans Nuclear Arsenal...
0.60-0.90 against cruise missiles (with an effective range of around 5 km/3 miles) 3 miles is a pretty small window considering cruise missles are fired from a few hundred miles away, if not further. Not much margain for error.
0.70-0.90 against precision munitions (LGBs, glide bombs, etc.) wouldnt it make more sense to target the aircraft itself instead of trying to stop several hundred 2,000lb bombs falling in the sky? oh, except that they'll never shoot down a single B-2...
0.90 against UAVs i think its great that they would spend that much $$$ on something as simple as a UAV. we could get them to shoot thier entire wad within a matter of hours and we'd be out a few hundred thousand bucks.
Let the Israelis have a try and sack the next general.

face it, no matter how you try to dress it up, Muslims suck at military affairs. Just because their religion is stuck in the 7th Century doesnt mean their strategies have to be...
DarkLordofConservatism Wrote:Russia always believed in building a serviceable piece of equipment that could get the job done and then build immense numbers of them to overcome the deficiency in quality as compared to Western military equipment. Having said this, I still think Russian Su-34 and Mig-33 jets are on par if not superior to Western jets in most areas save avionics. Just think if you could refit a Su-34 with F-22 Raptor avionics? That would be one heck of a platform to contend with. It's a good thing Russia cannot afford to mass produce their weapons on the scale they did under the Soviet regime. But what happens when the Chinese and the Iranians start to invest heavily in Russian factories to ramp up production again? If the Middle East continues to polarize the world as it is doing now, we could see a new Sino-Russian military alliance to offset American and Israeli geo-political influence. :?

Let me correct you here. your statement

Quote:Russia always believed in building a serviceable piece of equipment that could get the job done and then build immense numbers of them to overcome the deficiency in quality as compared to Western military equipment.

is not completely accurate. Russia always believed in building "minimially" servicable pieces of equipment. The word "minimally" is the key here. tollerences within the Russian/Soviet system are barely,............well tollerable. Engines are scheduled for overhaul at half the life of US engines. Crew comfort is completely ignored. Again tollerences are not important. That is why the AK47 may have been sturdy, but it was not all that accurate.

It is a mentality, and ethic that leads to this. And when quality is not possible, then quantity becomes a quality of it's own with the Russian menatlity.

I'm going to have to go through the book, "The Threat: Inside The Soviet Military Machine", and scan in some chapters again, where the author describes the quality of the Soviet system. There is no reason to suppose that things are really different, even today.
Ok, here are three chapters, which I scanned to OCR a couple of years ago. It is on three chapters, and I have never gotten around to OCRing the rest, but they should give you some idea as to just what the Soviet/Russian military system is like. Granted, the book is over twenty years old, but in Russia, things do not change quickly. the system is still the same in basic form, with only some chipping around the edges, and very little of that in truth.

Here is Chapter 6: The Hordes, where the military personnel, and it's conscription system shakes down.

Here is Chapter 7:Mobalizing the Hordes, where their ability to get out into the field is discussed. It's a real study, in which the Keystone Cops are professional in comparrison.

Here is Chapter 8(my favorite chapter, since I was an armored officer) Tanks and other Armor, in which the quality of Soviet armor is examined, along with it's ability to get the job done.

these chapters are quite long, but well worth the time spent acclimating ones'self with the Soviet military. Some, in it's defense, will cry that that was a long time ago, and that the Russian militray is improved. That will not be true, because basic systems are extremely hard to change, and there has not been any serious critique on the substantial improvements in Russian principles and serious military reform. It is just not there. Just a look at how Russian military handled Chechnyan hostage situation, And method of attack on Grozny exposes Russian military doctrine. It has not changed from Soviet times.

Quiz, is this a picture from WWII, or from the war in Chechnya?

[Image: grozny.jpg]

[Image: grozny1.jpg]

the point I am trying to make is this. If anyone thinks that the equipment being sent to Iran is really "state of the art", then they are not viewing it in it's global context. Russian militray equipment, while being adequate, is difficult to acheive that success. Several things necessitate this. Personnel must be highly trained, expect breakdowns, and allow for loose tollerances. And lastly, allow for things in large quantity. Where the US relies on highly accurate, limited numbers, Russians depend of limited accuracy and high numbers.
I have read several books by Bing West, a former Marine who went a-huntin with the Marines on their road to BAghdad; he spoke of SEVERAL instances where Russian tanks or anti-armor guns were emplaced and barricaded, but were left empty. they could have done some serious damage to our military had the people just stayed in their positions, but they did not. Hussein's strategy was to draw out the combat till the UN would step in and demand a cease-fire, yet his people deserted.

you can buy the most sophisticated system in the world, but when B-2s are flying over head dropping 2,000lb bombs and the roar of 5 miles worth of Marine convoys shatters the ear drums, if there is not a dedicated crew serving that weapon, all you have is a 10 ton paperweight...
John, judging by the street lights, im going to go with Chechnya...[/img]
Now, for the direction where China is going, check Stratfor today.

Of course, their new toy is not for export, but this is where massive research $ are going to.
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