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To me,the significant thing here is his comment that females are the "weapon of satan" to destroy men.

That's why Muslim males hate females and why females are as they are in that culture. That statement made folks mad in Australia,but it ought to wake up every non Muslim human on earth.
The man has done us all a huge service,when I tell you people such things,it is the ranting of a red neck idiot,but when the leader of Islam in a nation tells you,maybe you will believe?

Incidentally,this hatred also explains why there is so much gay sex among Muslim males(and there is relative to other societies even though it is prohibited). When you don't do the natural body function,weird results occur over time.

Stupid da.mned religion and we kiss as.s to it every day. Might as well respect the Aztecs and their death cult,what's the difference?

Here's more info. When we get down to the central cause of much of our troubles with Islam,I have noticed no one cares. It seems to me we desire to avoid truth. It CAN'T be that 1.2 billion people follow a religion that teaches this nonsense. Oh yes,it can be.

But,we tend to desire and think we are able to fix something via whatever,politics,diplomacy,etc.

As you know, I agree with what you've said. Islam, as it is being practiced by most Muslims, is not a good thing. It always amazes me when conservatives think liberals empathize with Islam; we don't. At least I don't.

That being said, I don't think the answer is to change Islam through military invasion. Doing so only makes Muslims more afraid of us, and in turn makes them cling to Islam harder. The way to do it is to open up their societies to globalism, and over time Islam will be washed away by our own superior democratic and libertarian values.

First of all,I find you more objective than most the conservatives here. Second,I agree most liberals don't agree or side with the Islamic movement. I see you as an old labor union type liberal more than a leftist.
What I do think occurs is that most leftists(which I guess is an extremist liberal) in the past identified the USA as the font of all anti socialist,anti Marxist evil and thus ANYONE opposing the USA has to have an economic motivation for it.

I've read leftists make the case that Muslims are upset at us over say capitalism,globalism,etc. That's silly nonsense,but it fits the leftist core belief system.

Muslims dislike all non Muslims,period. It's part of their religion,either we convert or we are to be enslaved or killed,that also is a teaching yet discussed properly and openly by Islamic authorities,but I happen to know it's accurate. They speak in private about it,but not openly like this Imam did mysogyny in Islam.

Now,I agree also that war will change NO mind on thinking paradigms. However,war is real good to remove operational control from a state when it is antagonistic to you.

That's all war is good for as we practice it and while Iraq su.cks,it is not using it's resources to combat US motives or policy as it was.
He has said something that was completely opposite to what Religious Leader of Turkey Ali Bardakoglu has said.
I guess his firing shows that more Moslems have moderate views.

Australia Muslim cleric suspended
Australia's top Muslim cleric has been barred from preaching for up to three months, after comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat".
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali's comments, suggesting that women who did not wear a headscarf attracted sexual assault, have caused a storm of protest.

Sydney's mosque association said the suspension would give the cleric time to consider the impact of his words.

But Australian Premier John Howard said the action was insufficient.

Many people - including some Muslim leaders - have called for the cleric to be dismissed from office.

I think he embarrassed Australia's Muslims for being so open and honest,I doubt many faithful Muslims disagree with his thinking.
the larger part of Christianity, Catholicism, does not respect women a iota more than Islam does. Under neither of the three sibbling religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are women equal to men. (And this is bad, because?) Interesting for me, because I don't know much about the history of religions, was Brown's "DaVinci Code". Real gender equality existed in communist nations, but as we know they lacked a few other things.
Besides, Muslim men are in no greater numbers homosexual than Christians, Hindus or Atheists. I guess, muslim countries would be the very last ones were distinctivly disturbed folks were allowed to run "gay-rights demonstrations" or were the vast majority of straight people is forcibly treated to every facet of homosexuality. Seems to have become a part of pop culture and if you don't belong to, you are out. Really, what people do in their bedrooms is up to them, but ocassionally, one wishes they kept it there.
Science tells nowadays it's in the genes. On the other hand, in industrialised nations are 106 boys born to 100 girls. In China, were they love to abort girls, the ratio is 117 to 100. Odd, if you go out in Germany to meet girls, pubs, discos or such, you find in those places a ratio of perhaps three men to one woman. (No wonder so many exotics are being imported). Is it really the genes or the sociological change?
Are you serious there's more gay sex in the muslim world? I think we should encourage that frankly. If they don't multiply they don't survive. You would have to be gay to say that about women.

Wrong. Islam actually teaches that the female is a problem for the male,that her inherent sexuality may cause the male to go to hell.

That leads to hatred,IMO. Imagine being taught such nonsense,then when you have sexual desires for her,whose fault was it??? HERS!

Leads to mysogyny.

The Biblical Scritures teach no such nonsense. They teach a line of authority within the family unit and the local Church adminstration to the male(which is attacked by society across the USA),but beyond that there is not a word in Biblical Scripture lowering the value of a female below the male anywhere.

In Roman society,it was acceptable the male could committ adultery,but the lady could not without severe retribution. The Bible teaches total equality of the 2 sexes in all ways before the law and man.

If a Christian does not respect a woman more than a Muslim,it is not due to Biblical input. It is due to ignoring Biblical input.

I do not view the line of authority as a statement of inequality for the woman anymore than I do see it as inequality for a minor child,it's just that someone has to be the authority,the Bible assigns that role to the husband. That is not inequality,IMO. Especially as The Bible also mandates I love my wife as much as myself,which is often ignored even by Christian males.

The image of Eve as temptress in the Bible has resulted in an extremely negative impact on women throughout the Judaeo-Christian tradition. All women were believed to have inherited from their mother, the Biblical Eve, both her guilt and her guile. Consequently, they were all untrustworthy, morally inferior, and wicked. Menstruation, pregnancy, and childbearing were considered the just punishment for the eternal guilt of the cursed female sex. In order to appreciate how negative the impact of the Biblical Eve was on all her female descendants we have to look at the writings of some of the most important Jews and Christians of all time. Let us start with the Old Testament and look at excerpts from what is called the Wisdom Literature in which we find:

"I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all" (Ecclesiastes 7:26-28).

In another part of the Hebrew literature which is found in the Catholic Bible we read:

"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).

Jewish Rabbis listed nine curses inflicted on women as a result of the Fall:

"To the woman He gave nine curses and death: the burden of the blood of menstruation and the blood of virginity; the burden of pregnancy; the burden of childbirth; the burden of bringing up the children; her head is covered as one in mourning; she pierces her ear like a permanent slave or slave girl who serves her master; she is not to be believed as a witness; and after everything--death." 2

To the present day, orthodox Jewish men in their daily morning prayer recite "Blessed be God King of the universe that Thou has not made me a woman." The women, on the other hand, thank God every morning for "making me according to Thy will." 3 Another prayer found in many Jewish prayer books: "Praised be God that he has not created me a gentile. Praised be God that he has not created me a woman. Praised be God that he has not created me an ignoramus." 4

The Biblical Eve has played a far bigger role in Christianity than in Judaism.
Her sin has been pivotal to the whole Christian faith because the Christian conception of the reason for the mission of Jesus Christ on Earth stems from Eve's disobedience to God. She had sinned and then seduced Adam to follow her suit. Consequently, God expelled both of them from Heaven to Earth, which had been cursed because of them. They bequeathed their sin, which had not been forgiven by God, to all their descendants and, thus, all humans are born in sin. In order to purify human beings from their 'original sin', God had to sacrifice Jesus, who is considered to be the Son of God, on the cross. Therefore, Eve is responsible for her own mistake, her husband's sin, the original sin of all humanity, and the death of the Son of God. In other words, one woman acting on her own caused the fall of humanity. 5 What about her daughters? They are sinners like her and have to be treated as such. Listen to the severe tone of St. Paul in the New Testament:

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).

St. Tertullian was even more blunt than St. Paul, while he was talking to his 'best beloved sisters' in the faith, he said: 6

"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die."

St. Augustine was faithful to the legacy of his predecessors, he wrote to a friend:

"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."

Centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas still considered women as defective:

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence."

Finally, the renowned reformer Martin Luther could not see any benefit from a woman but bringing into the world as many children as possible regardless of any side effects:

[b]"If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there"
The only Biblical input(Timothy), is the woman was fooled,the man willfully acted and as such,each is given a different role on earth due to this. The easily fooled female is not the leader of the family or the Church. That's the beginning and end of the difference of females in Christian theology.

The rest of your post may as well be from Time Magazine.

Another pitiful attempt to align falsely God's Truth with Mohammad's warlord mentality and mysogny toward all females. Worship the arab warlord all you want,I don't mind it.

The Koran says what the Koran says about females and Muslims act like Muslims act for a reason in 2006. We all can read nowdays can't we?
Following is an excerpt, the article at the site give many quotes from the New Testament, proving that anti semitism started way before Hitler and Martin Luther.

Is the New Testament Anti-Semitic?

by Clifford Goldstein, Liberty, March/April 1992

What book depicts Jews as hypocrites, apostates, liars, and sinners? What book denounces Jewish leaders and the Jewish nation? What book scolds its priests, claims its Temple services are corrupt, and spews forth warnings that God's judgments will fall upon the Jews? What book - accusing the Jews of murder, corruption, greed, and robbery - declares that they have forsaken God?

Sounds like the New Testament, long indicted as the Perian Spring of Western anti-Semitism. Some believe the hands that signed the "final solution" simply finished the script begun by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Hitler, others claim, was the logical, inevitable result of Paul. Christian historian James Parkes writes that "more than 6 million deliberate murders are the consequences of the teaching about the Jews for which the Christian church is ultimately responsible, and our attitude to Judaism which is not only maintained by all Christian churches but has its ultimate resting place in the teaching of the New Testament itself."

Another link to an interesting site:
Nope. I already made a nice list of why this is a ridiculous charge. The hypocrites of the New Testament were the Pharisee Jews,not Jews.

One would have to study the Old Testament text to understand why they were hypocrites. Certainly,Paul the Apostle and his fellow Jewish Apostles and their Christian brothers were not anti Jewish,the thought is absurd.

I would offer the author a free ticket to live in a Muslim state or America,I bet he chooses America. Just like Kamil chooses America. Where more Christians live than any other state on earth. Wonder why Kamil doesn't reside in an Islamic nation if he sees Christians as evil?

Why do any Muslims live here? What is wrong with living in a Muslim state with these people?
there is something fundamentally wrong with your reasoning. You cannot deport anybody who doesn't share your opinions. Exertion of religion is free in America, as is free speech and all that stuff. The aim must have been kind of peaceful side by side of all the cultures that immigrated to America. Must have some value for you?
Why don't you go to the realms of your religion? That would be that worthless little strip of desert Jews and Arabs are bickering about to no end. Hey, you Americans have the powers to claim the holy land of Christianity, where Jesus himself walked the earth and the trumpets brought down Jericho and Haensel and Gretel slained the witch.
Achilles Wrote:Nope. I already made a nice list of why this is a ridiculous charge. The hypocrites of the New Testament were the Pharisee Jews,not Jews.

One would have to study the Old Testament text to understand why they were hypocrites. Certainly,Paul the Apostle and his fellow Jewish Apostles and their Christian brothers were not anti Jewish,the thought is absurd.

I would offer the author a free ticket to live in a Muslim state or America,I bet he chooses America. Just like Kamil chooses America. Where more Christians live than any other state on earth. Wonder why Kamil doesn't reside in an Islamic nation if he sees Christians as evil?

Why do any Muslims live here? What is wrong with living in a Muslim state with these people?

Pharisee Jews
An important binary in the New Testament is the opposition between law and love. Accordingly, the New Testament presents the Pharisees as obsessed with man-made rules (especially concerning purity) whereas Jesus is more concerned with God’s love; the Pharisees scorn sinners whereas Jesus seeks them out. Because of the New Testament's frequent depictions of Pharisees as self-righteous rule-followers, the word "pharisee" (and its derivatives: "pharisaical", etc.) has come into semi-common usage in English to describe a hypocritical and arrogant person who places the letter of the law above its spirit. Jews today (who subscribe to Pharisaic Judaism) typically find this insulting if not anti-Semitic.
Many non-Christians object that the four Gospels, which were canonized after Christianity had separated from Judaism (and after Pharisaism emerged as the dominant form of Judaism), are likely a very biased source concerning the conduct of the Pharisees. Some have argued that Jesus was himself a Pharisee (for example see E. P. Sanders), and that his arguments with Pharisees is a sign of inclusion rather than fundamental conflict (disputation is the dominant narrative mode in the Talmud). Jesus' emphasis on loving one's neighbor, for example, echoes the teaching of the school of Hillel (Jesus' views of divorce, however, are closer to those of the school of Shammai, another Pharisee). Others have argued that the portrait of the Pharisees in the New Testament is an anachronistic caricature. For example, when Jesus declares the sins of a paralytic man forgiven, the New Testament has the Pharisees criticizing Jesus' blasphemy. But Jewish sources from the time commonly associate illness with sin and healing with forgiveness, and there is no actual Rabbinic source that questions or criticizes this practice. Although the New Testament presents the Pharisees as obsessed with avoiding impurity, Rabbinic texts reveal that the Pharisees were concerned merely with offering means for removing impurities, so that a person could again participate in the community. According to the New Testament, Pharisees wanted to punish Jesus for healing a man's withered hand on the Sabbath, but there is no Rabbinic rule according to which Jesus had violated the Sabbath. According to the New Testament the Pharisees objected to Jesus's mission to outcast groups such as beggars and tax-collectors, but Rabbinic texts actually emphasize the availability of forgiveness to all. Indeed, much of Jesus' teaching, for example the Sermon on the Mount, is consistent with that of the Pharisees.

Some scholars believe that those passages of the New Testament that present a caricature of the Pharisees were not written during Jesus' lifetime but rather sometime after the destruction of Herod's Temple in 70 CE, at a time when it had become clear that most Jews did not consider Jesus to be the messiah. At this time Christians sought most new converts from among the gentiles. They thus presented a story of Jesus that was more sympathetic to Romans than to Jews. Moreover, it was only after 70 CE that Phariseeism emerged as the dominant form of Judaism. For Christian leaders at this time to present Christianity as the legitimate heir to the Old Testament Covenant, they had to devalue Rabbinic Judaism.


If Otto said you were not a good Muslim because you like Alevis,would that mean he is anti Turk or sees you as a failure within the faith? That's the same difference here.

Incidentally,what is the Luther purpose here? He's well known as an anti Jewish bigot. Who here adheres to any philosophy of his? Is your point that any known Christian is a source of Christ's thinking? I thought we were arguing whether the Koran teaches anti Jewish arrogance or the Bible?


During war I can deport,round up or kill anyone siding with the enemy. In 1942,that would mean you,since late 2001 it means people like the Imam and his co-religionists. They have no more business living in America than Bin Laden has. We're at war,this is no game. I know,this one is in Australia,I was just using him as an example of 1 I would send home in an envelope,dead or alive would be his choice.