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The law is unbelievable,you deny the Armenian thing and get put in jail????? Bizarre. I have mixed feelings on the Armenian thing,I think it mostly did occur,but I don't know if it was policy or chaos that allowed it to move forward as it did. I also think the Armenians were asking for it revolting during a wartime and I think the Russki used the Armenians then abandoned them.

Having said that,I think Turks either way ought to be more honest about it instead of acting like it was small potatoes.

Palladin Wrote:The law is unbelievable,you deny the Armenian thing and get put in jail????? Bizarre.

State-enforced views, a so-far mild form of *fascism*. Very typical for the Europeans.

Regardless of what I think about the Armenian-Turkish conflicts and mutual atrocities, this action strikes France from the list of democratic countries.


The most interesting part, however, is the Turkey-EU membership issue. I think it is officially dead now.

Isn't this fairly widespread in Europe? You cannot denigrate Islam in most states,I know Orianna was under indictment for dissing Islam(good thing I don't live in Italy!),I know it is illegal in Germany to speak anti semitism,I know a pastor in Canada(no offense Canucks!) was under indictment a few years ago for denigrating Islam.

It's illegal to speak ill of Islam,but not Christ in Europe mostly. I say neither should be illegal and if I am stupid and evil enough I ought to be able to speak anti semitism as well. That's freedom,nasty and good.
Palladin Wrote:MV,

Isn't this fairly widespread in Europe?

This is what I said S2
It is typical. The only thing the European change is what is illegal to say, but it is always something. It used to be illegal to argue with Marx and Hitler, now it is illegal to argue with PC.

You are correct about Falluci, and there were several similar cases in France.

The most serious case, in my opinion, is that of David Irving. An interesting character, possibly the best WWII historian, most certainly an anti-semite, serving a 3-year sentence in Austria due to wrong views on the Holocaust and (specific charges) uttering "illegal opinions on history at a 1989 talk".

Perhaps, under Islam, Europe will be freer?
One more example of the French deciding they will determine the moral code of the world.
As to other countries that have those types of laws examine the reasons to determine whether foul or fair.
In Germany you can not deny the Holocaust and the Anti Semite laws are strict (Even though it includes Arabs who are Semites also)
As it should be. The crime was horrendous so to should the punishment be.
Democracy has limits as does all forms of Government. There are less in a Democracy than an Autocracy.
Canada is much like France. They desire to set standers appear superior and foist it upon the world.
Italy has been a pretender to the Democratic form of government since WW II. They are not good at it. Crime families prosper and the rest are gagged with repressive laws.
As long as they can party and drink vino all hail the government. Bella Bella. They change leaders like the rest of us change socks.
They will pass laws and act tough when it comes to protecting their pseudo democratic values but internally they are pussycats to influence form all the organizations no matter what including Unione Sicilione.

Turkey is Muslim. They are not going to admit to Genocide no matter what. It is not considered Genocide, nor even a bad thing, to wipe out infidels and other non believers so Ca Sa Ra Sa Ra.
The Kurds are next.
Quote:The law is unbelievable,you deny the Armenian thing and get put in jail????? Bizarre.

Well, only unbelievable for the uninitiated. You can also be prosecuted for denying the holocaust. Most of the world has what cannucks refer to as 'reasonable speech'. Meaning, you can say anything you want as long as nobody is offended. Freedom of speech as we Americans understand and practice it really is unique (although we have started down the slippery slope with the restrictions on political speech during elections). I can't think of any other country that doesn't have some type of laws against insulting certain protected groups or dissing officially legislated history.

When I hear liberals dreamily sighing about how they wish the US would be like Europe, or more particularly France, I know that they're completely clueless.

just passed the lower house by 107 for and 19 against votes. Over 440 members did not participate in the voting.
To get final approval for the bill it has to pass senate vote and signed by the French President.
Since the numbers of voters were very small, many are predicting that the bill will not go to senate for approval.
Meantime, I was thinking what I have that made in French and I thought I did not have anything untill somebody reminded me of my Michelin Tires, I guess I will be buying Goodyear Tires next time I need to replace them.

Following is the information I posted at BBC, voice your opinions section about Armenians.

Quote:Census reports issued between 1910 and 1915 by the European Countries and Ottoman Empire estimates Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire to be between 1.2 and 1.6 million.

Between 1915 and 1920, Eight-hundred -thousand Armenians in Europe and Russia applied to receive refuge aid from various relief organizations. These numbers are well documented and archived in various relief organizations. In addition many Armenians immigrated to United States and other Middle Eastern countries.

Also, pre 1965 version of Encyclopedia Britannica and other Encyclopedias reported that 300,000 Armenians were killed in the Ottoman Empire during and after WWI.

The numbers of Armenians killed went to 600,000 in Encyclopedias printed after 1965.

The numbers on the same Encyclopedias went to 1.5 million printed after 1980.

Looks like the Armenians of WWI era gets reported as killed in the so called genocide after they die of old age.

Nobody is denying that many Armenians did not suffer and died in the last days of Ottoman Empire, but so did everybody else in the region.

There are too many anecdotal points of information from missionaries to US ambassadors in Turkey and Syria that witnessed the staggering lines of Kurds and their treatment.

I've read some. No one today would know the exact number and it is not the fault of 2006 Turks whether it was or was not a formal policy to send them to Syria the way they were sent. It was clearly a really bad thing for all concerned.

I didn't own slaves,I wish slaves never had been in the USA. I don't try to minimize the fact they were held here though. I've said this before to you,it is not an assist to Turks to act as if this was a minimal thing,it was not.

Having said this,I am not even blaming the 1915 Turk for the Armenians did revolt against the Empire during a war era and this is a really good way to get yourself massacred. I can't say we wouldn't have done the same.

The truth is most any group of people betrayed like that MIGHT just take retribution real hard on the perps. For those here who don't know or care,Armenians heretofore had been the Ottoman's favored "That's a Good Boy" and listened to the nefarious Russki preach re-alignment,then the Russki left the Turks and Armenians alone.

Russia enticed and promised and then left Armenian rebels to fend for themselves.
The most interesting thing about this is the sheer level of anti-Turk(and Muslim) sentiment that would allow a French politician to pass a bill of this nature.
mv Wrote:This is what I said S2
It is typical. The only thing the European change is what is illegal to say, but it is always something. It used to be illegal to argue with Marx and Hitler, now it is illegal to argue with PC.

What is typical is Europe's tenency toward suicide. Fascism or their current bout of Islamophilia are simply the mechanisms. We cured them of Hitler, but I this time after they catch fire, I wouldn't bother to lift my leg to put them out. They simply are not worth it. Every time you have to remove a screw from a perfectly good battery holder in your kid's toy, it's because they have imposed themselves on us in the CE mark. Our electronics industries are currently in an upheaval becuase they have imposed their envoronmental paranoia in the form of RoHs and WEEE on the rest of the world. Let them become one with the tit of Russian energy dependence and sell off their defense industries to their future masters. In short they are the culture of BullS#*T and I'm tired as hell of it.
Quote:In short they are the culture of BullS#*T and I'm tired as hell of it.

What's wrong with you? Don't you feel their cultural superiority? Wink1
I can't blame Russians, French, British for trying to use Armenians to win WWI (not much differnt than USA using the Northern Alliance in Afganistan War). I also can't blame Armenians for turning against the Ottoman Empire to win their independence. And I don't blame Ottoman Empire trying to preserve their lands.

One thing you hear from Armenians is that Ottomans stole their land from them, but if we look back at history we see that Ottomans did not conquer an inch of land from Armenians. The lands Ottoman conquered were lost by Armenians to Persians, Arabs, Greeks and Russians centuries before Ottomans even came to the scene.
Regardless of the events here, the most significant thing is the continued spread of Fascism throughout the world. While socialism is faltering, the collectivists are moving steadily to Fascism, even calling it a "Third Way". And it's not just Russia headed that way.

Quote:Mussolini believed that Fascism was an international movement. He expected that both decadent bourgeois democracy and dogmatic Marxism-Leninism would everywhere give way to Fascism, that the twentieth century would be a century of Fascism. Like his leftist contemporaries, he underestimated the resilience of both democracy and free-market liberalism. But in substance Mussolini's prediction was fulfilled: most of the world's people in the second half of the twentieth century were ruled by governments which were closer in practice to Fascism than they were either to liberalism or to Marxism-Leninism.

The twentieth century was indeed the Fascist century.
mv Wrote:What's wrong with you? Don't you feel their cultural superiority? Wink1

Nope ... if modern anthropology is to be trusted, we all came from Africa. ... and I don't particularly feel their cultural superiority either. We have either fought for them or against them ... and with the possible exception of Lafayette and others like him ... (and that was a hell of a long time ago) I don't recall them actually fighting for us. I don't consider them worth my pi## ... and they sure as hell aren't worth my blood (and that definately includes my progeny).

The Russians abandoned the Armenians though with little assistance . It was entirely cynical to use them as cannon fodder to take Turk attention from them. The Northern alliance analogy isn't good here,the closest one is to the USA using Hmong tribesmen against the communists in North Vietnam,but we stood tall for 10 years trying and brouhgt a whole lot over here when we left.

Both dishonorable cases,we tried and failed,the Russki knew what they were doing,they never intended anything but using Armenians as cannon fodder.

I don't blame them for seeking independence,but NOT during a life and death war when heretofore Armenians had been loyal subjects. That is betrayal.

If the Armenians were mistreated subjects say as the Kurds of Hussein were,it would have been understandable.

Having said that,I still maintain Turks ought to take THAT position,YES,it happened,it was awful,we regret it happened,BUT people, they betrayed us during a deadly war with Russia and things did get out of hand.

MOST Americans would understand that logic. Especially as we have skeletons in our own closests,so do the finger pointing Europeans. NO ONE is angelic on earth,Kamil.
Palladin Wrote:Having said that,I still maintain Turks ought to take THAT position,YES,it happened,it was awful,we regret it happened,

Yes, but WHAT happened?

Lots of messy stuff in the war area including some killings on both sides? -- no one denies this.

Or an attempt of genocide? -- this is the charge the argument is about.


For comparison, consider the charge of genocide against Saddam for killing Kurds. It is based currently on a few of villages. For all we know, local Kurds there were pro-Iranian, and some evidence of this emerges in the current reports.
This makes Saddam guilty of perhaps war crimes, but not genocide.
Russia was very supportive of Armenians, but they had their revolution in 1917. Lenin was sure that Ottoman Empire was going to be replaced by communism in Turkey, and they stopped all their support for Armenians.
It was than that Turkey regained the lands they have lost to Armenians in the Eastern Turkey.

French, after losing many men in Anatolia, pulled back quickly, leaving Armenians behind trying to defend the lands they controlled in the Cilicia region of Anatolia, but were quickly defeated.

Britain, even though they used a lot of propaganda against Ottoman Empire, they did not have any direct support for Armenians in Anatolia, their pullback did not expose any Armenians to face battle against Turks.

Italians were also not involved in using Armenians in Anatolia, I think they were the first one to pull out after facing few bloody battlles.

Greeks had some Armenians in their army, but they did not leave behind any of them after they lost two very bloody battles.

Turkey accepts that many Armenians died during WWI, but they also lost 3 million of their own people during that period.

As I have mentioned before, Britain while they were in control of Western Turkey during and right after WWI. They charged almost 100 officers for involving in the so called genocide, but they could not find any evidence to support their claims.

Why should Turkey accept something that can not be proven by facts, but claimed by symphaties?

I don't know exactly what happened and certainly not whether or not it was a Hitlerian formal attempt at holocaust or retribution gotten out of hand.

I know enough info is available that there was a massive forced march of Armenian families down to Syria because we have US ambassadors and US Christian missionaries in various areas that witnessed the misery and wrote letters about it.

I am NOT a supporter of the modern "Armenian holocaust" bunch regardless of what happened,they are nothing to me but thieves,anti semites and scoundrels. kamil and I have run into a few in our day,they are not interested in justice.

Even if the worst was true of the Turks,what is that today to Armenians today? I don't consider myself responsible for slavery at all and do not agree any of my assets should be stolen and given to a black Americans as a repartion. neither would I ask a Turk to do so today even if it were a holocaust,which I have not a thimble full of proof on.

I'm not overly judgemental about this because the Armenians revolted during war and as you know,I wouldn't be easy on a bunch within the USA that did that right now.