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If you want to understand the crises of the world, you need to understand capitalisms. Karl Marx capitalism critic is still the key for such understanding. Don't be scared, Marx is lectured at universities right there in the USA.

"The desire for always expanding sales of their products chases the bourgeoisie over the whole planet. It must plant roots everywhere, build on everywhere, everywhere make connections. The bourgeoisie, by its exploitation of the world market, globalised the production and consumption of all nations... The ancient national economies have been destroyed and are being destroyed... The old, by products of the own nation satisfied desires are replaced by desires that can be satisfied by products of the remotest places and climates only. The old, local and national modesty and seclusion are replaced by a total dependence of the nations upon each other... The bourgeoisie drags by its rapid improvements of the instruments of production and means of communication all, including the most barbaric nations into the civilization. The appropriate prices of its goods are the heavy artillery that crumble all chinese walls...

Written about 150 years ago, hardly to believe. Islamic fundamentalism is surely a cause for terror, however, it is only a part of the causal chain. The underlying reason is, capitalism destroys the power of the Muslim countries old chiefs and strong men and they resist. We could not help it, this process is unavoidable and unstoppable, capitalism must expand as a natural law. Therefore, we must keep in mind that we are responsible.
How much did we spend worldwide on that 'war on terror'? As a modest guess, one trillion Dollars, rather more. How many terrorist are out there, 10,000? Rather fewer. That is 100mln spend on each one, they're quite an asset.
If we need to spend such amounts, would it not be smarter to invest them not in weapons and force and death, but in aid to ease the changes in the Muslim world? Would surely create less hate there and less of a big brother state on our site.
Dear Quad,

I have a suggestion. Find a board full of Muslims and preach your atheism/Marxism to them for a while,sort of an equal opportunity atheist/Marxist purveyor.

See if you convert any and report back to us.
quadrat, I don't see exactly what your agenda is, but if that's an accurate quote by Marx of what capitalism does, it's amazing, almost prophetic. Except now I guess it's called neoliberalism or globalization.

Bob Dylan wrote a song, decades ago, about how almost all the clothing we wear comes from the undeveloped world. The first towel I bought in Nicaragua came from China because, even though they grew cotton locally, the Nicas couldn't process it as cheaply as the Chinese could. I hadn't heard that capitalism has raised the GDP of Nicaragua much since then, either, but maybe it has.

I'm a proponent of a compassionate capitalism. I understand the original Adam Smith was, too.
Well, if under capitalism the greed is considered as obligatry, why altruism is considered as optional?
It's accurate except for the errors I made translating it. My agenda is, "we" forced this conflict upon the muslims and we must not add insult to injury where they are concerned. This fuels the conflict. "We" is not you and me but the big profiteers of capitalism. "We", again you and me, are in a no-win situation. We have to pay for this demagogic war and we lose freedom.

Palladin,
good news. Found somebody in your range of mind http://www.newsmutiny.com/pages/Opinion/WhitePower.htm Go and say hello to your soul mate.
So let me get this straight....you're blaming capatalism for the fact that radical muslems chose to hijack planes and attack the WTC?? And your response is that if ONLY we were to invest then we would be safe?


hhhmmm...I seem to recall one of the world HOTTEST commodities being found in the middle east....seems like they could, if they wanted to, develop their area of the world. There is way more to this than just money.....
quadrat Wrote:My agenda is, "we" forced this conflict upon the muslims and we must not add insult to injury where they are concerned. This fuels the conflict. "We" is not you and me but the big profiteers of capitalism.

"Q", please detail specifically how we "forced" this conflict upon the muslim world. I'm at a quandry here.

Now, what is this about "big profiteers of capitalism"? You are only throwing out generalities, which are meaningless here. Are you stating that it is sinful OR ourtageous for businesses to seek to maximize their profits? When you agree to work for someone, do you not attempt to work in your own best self interests, such as work to make the most in salary?

"Q", you are SO ignorant in even the most basic economic principles, and I don't mean this in an insulting manner, because you are a smart person. However, your "Get-even-with-'emism" is severly clouding your ability to think logically.

And lastly, if third world countries are poor, just how do you think that they would best increase their wealth and standard of living? Should they be expected to suddenly pop up into a completely developed one, or is it more reasonable to expect them to slowly work themselves up the ladder, by doing what they can do best? If you will look at Korea, or Taiwan, or Singapore, etc, they all started out poor, went for those industries that were able to do the basic things such as toys, hand tools, and other things that did not require the maximum technology.

Further, the employees also started out small and worked themselves up the economic ladder. India is currently doing this very same thing. It takes time, AND it is world trade, through Free Enterprise, and Free Trade that this happens. By spinning off lower technology jobs to other less developed countries, the more advanced country frees up it's work force for more advanced technologies, and the growing nation takes the lost jobs and uses them to pull themselves up the economic ladder, when They Too will do the same thing to the next layer of developing nations. This is a natural progression, and it only works through Globalization and Free Trade. Any other way will fail, or make things unbearably slow by comparrison.

Just what is it that makes you think that anything else will work?

BTY, could you tell me your age? I'm curious.
This is a question of Leadership. In order to be an effective leader you must at some point stop what you're doing and put the needs of others first. I think that in North America our governments have learned that success comes from the people and from equal opportunitues. In the Middle East one would be hard pressed to find a government that thought of it's people as equals......
Green,

Capitalism simply takes advantage of flawed human nature,whereas socialism seeks to improve society while it does NOT understand human nature.

That's why socialist policies increase rather than decrease poverty as well as lessening individual freedom.

The capitalist takes his assets,invests it to create more wealth and INADVERTENTLY creates new jobs,new wealth for others and new tax revenue to the state. He does it out of greed!

Altruism,philanthropy are additional gravy,but may or may not come forth. The creation of new wealth for others and new tax revenue to the state is unintended altruism and the secret why America is more wealthy than Russia.
Well pall, that and the fact that we are all armed, and can shoot gangsters on sight. lol
Bean
Quote:Capitalism simply takes advantage of flawed human nature,whereas socialism seeks to improve society while it does NOT understand human nature.
Palladin,
Top. Pitty there is no thumbs-up symbol there on the left.

Quote:So let me get this straight....you're blaming capatalism for the fact that radical muslems chose to hijack planes and attack the WTC?? And your response is that if ONLY we were to invest then we would be safe?
hhhmmm...I seem to recall one of the world HOTTEST commodities being found in the middle east....seems like they could, if they wanted to, develop their area of the world. There is way more to this than just money.....
targo88,
Yes. Their hate towards us has a cause and that's not a mental disorder. Oil in the Muslim world is a strange thing, it lies thickest where it benefits the fewest. A significant part is controlled by western enterprises or (in Irak) governments anyway, what creates little sympathy there either.
They need aid and we can obviously afford it.
Do you really believe this astronomical amount of money is spent to fight a handful of terrorist? God, ask any bookkeeper for a cost/profit analysis and how much an American life is worth. (Ghaddafi paid 10mln for Americans and one million for Europeans for his letter of indulgence).
How many American civilians died last year by the hands of terrorists? Zero, if I am not mistaken. A success of the military "war on terror" or rather a sign of the terrorists impotence and proper police work?
How many Americans soldiers died for the military "war on terror"? Everything connected with that WoT just smells badly.

John, running out of time at the moment, come back to it later.
Oil and terrorism is a vicious cycle. Oil causes us to project power into the Middle East. This causes Mideasterners to hate us.

I will admit one thing - its ironic that all the oil ended up in a region of the world which has an awfully violent history. We don't have to do with the terrorist culture, or whatever you want to call it. That is thousands of years old. But it is because of the oil, and our attempts to get it, that that terrorism is directed against us.
Anon,

Consider that North Africans and southern Europeans were not in the Arabian Peninsula pursuing "Muslim Oil" before the Muslims fanned out and occupied these areas at the point of a sword before deciding Muslims dislike us due to our sparse presence in the Persian Gulf.

They dislike EVERYONE that is not a Muslim. Get that through your head. We're the current target because of our strength,not our presence. They think if we become isolationists,the local governments will all collapse to their sharia law government idea. Next step would be caliphate,global power,eventual global rule.

They hate a Swiss agnostioc as much as they hate you or I. Switzerland is not an impediment to their goals,so Switzerland doesn't have the terrorism until the bigger foes are extinguished.
So since no American was killed from terror in the last year (well not here in North America) then we should just stop?


I'm sorry but that logic just doesn't sound right to me. It's like locking your doors every night and then one day thinking well no one has tried to come into my house so I'm not gonna lock my doors, or listen to the news or even believe anything that I might hear in regards to crime level in my area....


You think that maybe just maybe(I know it may be a bit of a stretch for your brain this morning but do try for me k?) that all this war taking place right now and all this money that is being spent is actually stopping them from attacking again? Surely you have heard about the undercover plots that have been found out in North America alone, bearing in mind that we are only told what they think we can handle. How much more 'could' be going on that we don't know about?


think about that for a moment, also keep in mind that I am Canadian, eh? and live on the west coast.......
I think Islam, as we know it today, is simply an outgrowth of the violent desert culture that the Arabs developed over thousands of years when they were living in Arabia. And of course, Mesopotamia has always been a violent region of the world.
Anon,

I think you're CORRECT,except they believe their ancient Arabic cultural ways are GOD's CREATION NOW. You must understand,even before Islam ,Arabs competed with Jews as they each saw themselves as "God's Chosen People".

I wish some of you guys were studying Scripture along with me. I am currently studying Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar is a fascinating guy actually. Chaldea ruled the known world at one point under him.

Imagine these same guys think their uncultured brutality is GOD's IDEA,add in trillions of dollars of oil revenue and that's what our problem is,plus there are 1.2 billion of these braindead people around.

Here's something ought to give us a pause. They RECRUIT by showing videos of men having their heads severed. What mentality is fascinated by that concept? YOUR ENEMY. And he isn't going away because you don't want to interface with themn any longer,it doesn't work that way.
Quote:So since no American was killed from terror in the last year (well not here in North America) then we should just stop?
I'm sorry but that logic just doesn't sound right to me. It's like locking your doors every night and then one day thinking well no one has tried to come into my house so I'm not gonna lock my doors, or listen to the news or even believe anything that I might hear in regards to crime level in my area....
You think that maybe just maybe(I know it may be a bit of a stretch for your brain this morning but do try for me k?) that all this war taking place right now and all this money that is being spent is actually stopping them from attacking again? Surely you have heard about the undercover plots that have been found out in North America alone, bearing in mind that we are only told what they think we can handle. How much more 'could' be going on that we don't know about?
think about that for a moment, also keep in mind that I am Canadian, eh? and live on the west coast.......

No, we must stop because this war is in reality used to restrict our freedom. Do you want to lose more of your control about your life and privacy? Terrorismus has always been around, just a few years ago in Europe worse than it is today. It hadn't been used yet to restrict the freedom of Europeans back then, now, and it is even not our war, it is.
Terror has often been the weapon of choice Americans themselves used against their enemies (remember the Nicaraguan contras?). AL Quaeda too, was planted in Afghanistan by the Americans in order to fight the Russians, by means of terror. Some of that terror has found home...
Should have been a wake up call, unfortunately, they gathered behind their flag and produce more war and terror than before. Interestingly, by far most of the WoT efforts are aimed at Irak, and they never commited any terror acts against the USA. WoT will, amongst the Muslims, unavoidably produce more hate, vengeance, terror. The very -alledged- effort to fight terror is fueling islamic terror, as it is intended by Bush and Blair.
Those 'undercover plots' were discovered by police. It's their job to catch criminals. Terrorists are nothing else (and a tiny group amongst all criminals as well as a tiny risk for you personally compared to your local thugs). Military, however, is traditionally not used to catch criminals but they are good at conquering remote countries.
quadrat Wrote:
Quote:So since no American was killed from terror in the last year (well not here in North America) then we should just stop?
I'm sorry but that logic just doesn't sound right to me. It's like locking your doors every night and then one day thinking well no one has tried to come into my house so I'm not gonna lock my doors, or listen to the news or even believe anything that I might hear in regards to crime level in my area....
You think that maybe just maybe(I know it may be a bit of a stretch for your brain this morning but do try for me k?) that all this war taking place right now and all this money that is being spent is actually stopping them from attacking again? Surely you have heard about the undercover plots that have been found out in North America alone, bearing in mind that we are only told what they think we can handle. How much more 'could' be going on that we don't know about?
think about that for a moment, also keep in mind that I am Canadian, eh? and live on the west coast.......

No, we must stop because this war is in reality used to restrict our freedom. Do you want to lose more of your control about your life and privacy? Terrorismus has always been around, just a few years ago in Europe worse than it is today. It hadn't been used yet to restrict the freedom of Europeans back then, now, and it is even not our war, it is.
Terror has often been the weapon of choice Americans themselves used against their enemies (remember the Nicaraguan contras?). AL Quaeda too, was planted in Afghanistan by the Americans in order to fight the Russians, by means of terror. Some of that terror has found home...
Should have been a wake up call, unfortunately, they gathered behind their flag and produce more war and terror than before. Interestingly, by far most of the WoT efforts are aimed at Irak, and they never commited any terror acts against the USA. WoT will, amongst the Muslims, unavoidably produce more hate, vengeance, terror. The very -alledged- effort to fight terror is fueling islamic terror, as it is intended by Bush and Blair.
Those 'undercover plots' were discovered by police. It's their job to catch criminals. Terrorists are nothing else (and a tiny group amongst all criminals as well as a tiny risk for you personally compared to your local thugs). Military, however, is traditionally not used to catch criminals but they are good at conquering remote countries.



Well I think it's a lil late to stop rolling the ball forward on this one....when it started immediate reation was infact needed S5 and now that it's started there is nothing to say that if the Americans (and their supporting countries, of which Canada is one of them...go Canada *roar*) stop now that we will be safe. We have to look at the type of country that we're dealing with, the country that held nothing back in it's initial attacks, a country who has got to be filled with more vengence now then it was before.....the only safe way to go is forward and to solider on.
Incidentally,in fairness to Nebuchadnezzar,he was actually an enlightened leader at times. I mentioned him due to the maglomania he showed in his golden statue story compared to the Saddam Hussein statues everywhere in Iraq. Same mentality there.

Nebuchadnezzar recovered from that nonsense and became a believer in Christ and actually penned Daniel Chapter 4.
Palladin Wrote:Nebuchadnezzar recovered from that nonsense and became a believer in Christ and actually penned Daniel Chapter 4.

Patrick, where does it state that? I believe that this is the first time I have ever seen anyone make this statement.
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