AI-Jane Political, And Economic Forums

Full Version: Blowing up The Baby
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4
To the western mind,this is a crime,to the Muslim mind,this is a sacrifice for allah. I don't want these people living in my nation,none of them.

http//www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20130092-5001021,00.html
It's going to take one or more major killings on top of 9/11 before enough people finally realize that this it REAL.

You ought to see all the ismalic kooks over at IAP, who are sporting Hezbollah graphics within their signatures and avatars(at least used to), and the things they are spouting. I hate to sound like a kook, but all these idiots are in serious need of being rounded up and deported, yesterday. They are potentially dangerous, just for their ideas alone.
Anybody who knows a little bit about Islam Religion knows that Suicide is prohibited in any circumstance.

The Qur'ân says:

Quote:Everyone is going to taste death, and We shall make a trial of you with evil and with good, and to Us you will be returned. (Al-Anbiyâ 21: 35)

".........Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! " (An-Nisa 4:29)

"......if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind ...." (Sûrah Al Ma'idah 5:32)

Studies have clearly shown that suicide bombing are done by Moslems who are not too deeply into their religion.
For example, out of 41 suicide missions conducted in Lebanon over the years 27 have been traced to be Communists, 3 Christians and 7 Moslems. Religious affiliation of the rest are not known.

I know more about Turkey than other Moslem countries, in Turkey everybody accepts that suicide bombers can not be buried with Islamic Ceremony.
To the western mind,this is a crime,to the Muslim mind,this is a sacrifice for allah. I don't want these people living in my nation,none of them.
Most people don't want them around. However, they (as immigrants usually do) work cheaply, don't want much welfare, don't know the law and their rights. It makes money to replace native people with foreigners.
quadrat Wrote:To the western mind,this is a crime,to the Muslim mind,this is a sacrifice for allah. I don't want these people living in my nation,none of them.
Most people don't want them around. However, they (as immigrants usually do) work cheaply, don't want much welfare, don't know the law and their rights. It makes money to replace native people with foreigners.

I'll go one step further "Q". The Clinton Administration view such as a crime, and thus did not take the appropriate action. Instead of a crime, it is an act of terrorism, and taken in it's totality, it is total religious war against radical Islam. It is that, pure and simple.

We are at war with Radical Islam, not this childish War on Terror(WOT), and most of the problems encountered could have been taken care of had Bush gone to Congress and requested a formal declaration of war against RADICAL ISLAM. That would have made a Tremendous difference. Plus it would have put the ball squarely in the corner of ALL Islam. Either they are for peace, or they are at war with the US, Period.
How hideous, how heinous, inexcusable and irreligious it is, to allow a baby to be killed in order to wage a crusade or holy war against another religion. Human life, especially of infants and the unborn, are precious to God, and should be guarded carefully. God forbid that we should go to war knowing that it would kill thousands and thousands of babies.
If we believe Kamil's explanation that these people are not True muslims, then perhaps someone should tell them this. It appears to me that they are quite certain of their religiosity.

Perhaps there are enough Kamils, who will go to the land of Islam and inform them of their errant ways, so we can all settle down and smell the peaceful roses. Wink1
Like I said it before, I know fairly well how Moslems feel and follow their religion in Turkey , but I don't know about other Moslem countries any more than the rest of you.

In Turkey Imams are often go through random audits, and their teachings are evaluated by religious scholars.

For example in a few suicide bombings that occured in Turkey, even the relatives of the suicide bombers did not claim their bodies, and they were buried without typical Moslem ritiuals.

Danger of non Islamic teaching by the so called Imams are more likely to happen in countries where there is no evaluations to check the qualifications of these individuals.
Kamil Wrote:Like I said it before, I know fairly well how Moslems feel and follow their religion in Turkey , but I don't know about other Moslem countries any more than the rest of you.

In Turkey Imams are often go through random audits, and their teachings are evaluated by religious scholars.

For example in a few suicide bombings that occured in Turkey, even the relatives of the suicide bombers did not claim their bodies, and they were buried without typical Moslem ritiuals.

Danger of non Islamic teaching by the so called Imams are more likely to happen in countries where there is no evaluations to check the qualifications of these individuals.

In that case, I have a timely suggestion for you secular muslims, and Turkish religious folk. Form a special fund, in which you go out of your way to help combat the influence of Saudi fundamentalism in the muslim world. They have taken old and destroyed Turkish mosques and rebult them in the likeness of their idea of what one should be, subsidized teaching of their brand of Islam, and genreally tended to turn regular muslims into flaming, hating, killing jihadists. If you are earnestly looking for a REAL enemy, thine enemy is Wahabbism. Until you cast it out and make some serious changes, you can forget about pushing forward your form of Islam.

Your enemy is NOT Joos, or looney fundamentalist Christians. Look within your own family for the crazy, dangerous uncle,who has left the attic, and is on the main floor, setting ablaze all he can reach.
I'll go further Kamil. As I have stated before, the principle difference between Christian and Muslim martyrdom is the approach the two religions take there. In Christianity, a Martyr is one who uses non-violence to make a statement for his/her canonization. In the world of Islam, a Martyr is one who uses violence, to gain the religious objective. The two approaches are entirely different.

And this is why I am certain Islam is doomed in the end, unless it is able to change it's objective. Because the person willing to lay down his/her life nonviolently, will ALWAYS win the nonbeliever over the one willing to use violence. ALWAYS in the long run. Were I you, I would pray earnestly for my religion's future. It is in serious danger of being slowly eliminated. And for good reason.

If you don't believe me, fine. Just remember what I said, when you are old, and see Islam withering away on the vine, as a result of it's past extremes. And all because of those, such as yourself, who lacked the moral courage to stand up and be counted, when it was necessary to do so.

Perhaps it is time for Islam to begin collecting Marytrs, dedicated to peace, rather than force. When will Islam canonize it's first sacrificial lamb to the principle of peace. Let's start with Anwar Sadat, or perhaps a Turk that you can recall? Do you have any candidates? Other than Sadat, I cant even begin to think of one worthy of the claim.
Repeating History
Ottoman Empire strongly opposed Wahabiism.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:Wahabi War (1811-1818)-- After recognizing Ottoman suzerainty over Egypt (a formality which left Ali in charge, but created a peace between Egypt and the Turks), Ali engaged in a war against the Wahabi Muslim sect in Arabia. The Wahabis had conquered the Muslim Holy cities of Mecca and Medina from Turkish rule, and in heavy fighting, the Egyptians retook these Holy areas from the Wahabis and then occupied them in the name of the Ottoman Empire.

In order to facilitate faster break up Ottoman Empire, British nurtured and financed the defeated Wahabiis of Sauidi Arabia back to health.
Looks like British achieved their goal.
You are Still missing my point. Until you produce enough intellectually honest people. who are willing to lay down their lives for principle, honesty, and peace, in opposition to the killers, you will Never gain stature amongst the rank and file muslims. Because They Fear For Their Lives.

Where are your peacemakers? Where are those willing to lay down their lives in the name of friendship and love for their neighbors AND enemies? Where are they kamil?
Turkey is taking many steps to reform Islam. Within Turkey they have reformist Ali Bardakoglu as president of Religious Affairs of Turkey.

From Wikipedia
Quote:Ali Bardakoglu is the current president of Religious Affairs of Turkey, also known as Diyanet Isleri in Turkish. The president of this institution is the highest Islamic authority in Turkey.

Background
Ali Bardakoglu was born in 1952 in Tosyar in the province of Kastamonu in Turkey. He has been the President of Diyanet Isleri since May 2003. In 1975 he completed his studies of law at the Istanbul Marmara University and gained Bachelor title at this faculty. Later he became assistant for Islamic law at the High Islamic Insitute in Kayseri. In 1982, he earned his PhD in Islamic studies at the Atatürk University and taught as Assistant professor at the theology faculty of the Erciyes University. From 1991 to 1992 he lived in the United Kingdom and in 1994 he visited the United States for the first time.

He is well known in Turkey and Europe as a moderate Islamic leader. He announced, in 2005, two women from Diyanet Isleri as vice muftis (i.e. professional jurists who interpret Islamic law and counselor who help local Muslims on religious issues) for the mosques of the Turkish cities of Kayseri and Istanbul. In February 2006 he participated as an honored guest in the opening ceremony of a Protestant church in Alanya

He speaks Turkish, Arabic and English. He is married and has three children.

Turkey is also trying to facilitate reforming of Islam in other Islamic countries

Quote:Turk to lead world Muslim group

By Jonny Dymond
BBC correspondent in Istanbul

[Image: _40277755_ihsanoglu-ap203.jpg]

Mr Ihsanoglu (right), with Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, was presented as a reformer
Turkey has succeeded in having its candidate appointed as next secretary general of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference.
Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, 61, was voted in at an OIC meeting in Istanbul, and will hold the job for four years.

Turkey had lobbied long and hard for this position, and its victory will bring great pleasure to the government.

Mr Ihsanoglu won a surprisingly easy victory, gaining 32 votes to the 12 given to both Bangladesh and Malaysia.

The victory is interesting both for the organisation and for Turkey itself.

For Turkey, in the year when it hopes to receive a date for membership negotiations with the EU to begin, its victory gives added weight to its claim to be a bridge between Europe and the Islamic world.

For the organisation and its member states, the choice may indicate a further movement towards reform.
From BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3811205.stm

Of course if they are successful in starting to reform Islam, Britain might try to repeat history and rush in to prevent these reforms.
That is perfectly fine. But where are your martyrs for peace? Where are those willing to lay down their lives for the good of humanity?

This is where Christianity has it all over Islam. As the saying goes, "you will attract more bees with honey, than vinegar." Same thing with peace and conflict. From my standpoint, all I see is conflict, filled with homicide bombers, and those willing to sacrifice themeslves AND others violently, all in the name of Islam.

Is this a sure recipe for success in the long run?
I don't know John. To me it appears to be that Christians have killed more Christians throughout their history than being killed by any other religions.

Personally, I'm a secualrist and not willing to get killed trying to reform any religions. Besides my main interest are only with the United States and Turkey.

However, people like Turkish Ihsanoglu and Bardakoglu can do much more to reform religion in the long run than bunch of martyrs.
Kamil Wrote:I don't know John. To me it appears to be that Christians have killed more Christians throughout their history than being killed by any other religions.

Personally, I'm a secualrist and not willing to get killed trying to reform any religions. Besides my main interest are only with the United States and Turkey.

However, people like Turkish Ihsanoglu and Bardakoglu can do much more to reform religion in the long run than bunch of martyrs.

While many 'so called' Christians have killed more Christians, that is because there was a lot of them.

And as for the Martyrs, they have accomplished more thatn any others, number for number, person by person. Just Ask Fit'. It's true.
You guys always say that this is a war against radical Islam.

But will any of you admit that there is little difference between radical and regular Islam? Thus this is a war against Islam?
John L Wrote:While many 'so called' Christians have killed more Christians, that is because there was a lot of them.

And as for the Martyrs, they have accomplished more thatn any others, number for number, person by person. Just Ask Fit'. It's true.
Oh, did someone call my name? Thanks, John.

Indeed, Christian non-violent pacifist, peace-making activist martyrs for Jesus can do great things. Trouble is, JohnL, there aren't enough of us! I'm doing something like you're suggesting to Kamil: going out among my own co-religionists, trying to get them to be nonviolent pacifist martyrs for my faith. And you see how well I do! (not) S4

However...my friends in the Christian Peacemakers Team, in their first several years in Iraq, did inspire the creation of a Muslim Peacemakers Team in Iraq. S1 Also, the CPT people who have been in Palestine non-stop for maybe 8 years so far, have lots of Muslim pacifist friends in Palestine.
Fit', just call me John, ok? The L part is must middle initial. S6 Like the John part, it too is Jewish,..... of sorts.

And yes, pacificity has huge rewards, if conducted properly, and in the right circumstance. But unlike you, I regard it as not the 'end all, be all' with everything.

As for Islam, it is just waiting for the likes of an early Chrisaianity martyr, who is willing to lay down his/her life for a greater end. As I have already stated, I honestly believe that Anwar Sadat will be regarded as one of the first in modern times, and for good reason. Like many early Christian martyrs, he was first a military man, and changed at the first real opportunity to promote peace with his enemies. I remember an interview with him a few months before his death, and he stated that he was aware of the threat on his life. But he willingly accepted this, knowing that in the end, his martyrdom would transcend later events.

Unfortunately, there are no others who will place themselves into the breech in order to stop the madness that continues to radiate out of the world of Islam, SA being the most focused. It's really a shame. Oh, there are some taking the right steps in that direction: that Canadian lady, who is hated for her expose on Islam. Or the Dutch lady, who recently fled Holland, a price on her head, to the US and security. But they are so few and far between.

And it is not until Islam undergoes the change that Christianity underwent, that it will ever mature into something that is not always on the edge of failure, and believe me it is. That is why Islam so hates Individual Liberty, for they Know that with liberty comes repudiation of Islam as it stands. And like most human endeavours, it is reactionary, and resists change, to the point of the use of wholesale violence. That is why I hold so much hope for the Chinese evangalism movement.
Kamil,

You yourself are not a good Muslim based on your own testimony,does this mean that you are more likely than Mohammad Atta to have done the 9-11 attacks? Atta was exceptionally pious as a youth.
Pages: 1 2 3 4