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Let me make it clear I do not believe all muslims or most are terrorists. Terrorism and terrorists are tools used. I believe a majority of muslims use these tools. Let me give you the example in Britain in which the muslims offered cooperation only if sharia law was allowed in Britain to be a greater power than the British laws. Since muslims are multiplying in greater numbers than the brits you can see how eventually sharia law would be the law applied to all citizens.

Another example in which the Saudi prince came to NYC offered 15 million to NYC with the statement your treatment of muslims created 9/11. If mayor Guiliani had accepted that money the prince would have returned with more money and demands. They use terrorism to accomplish their goals even if they are not conducting the terrorism or coordinating with the terrorists. Islam is working as their middle man.

They would use their own babies to blow up others. Makes you wonder if we should allow them to adopt in our country. We know Al Qaeda wants whites who can blend in, they practically adopted Adam Ghadan.
I understand the different branches - this is akin to the thirteen tribes seen through religiosity rather than through whose waterhole is whose. There are branches in everything, but there is one tent under which all these branches unite and that is Islam with a capital I.

The madrassahs that take impressionable unschooled children and warp their minds to accept ritual suicide that is ordained to kill innocent civilians for heavenly reward are Satanic. The less maniacal branches that still allow the other branches to murder and behave Satanically are no less Satanical. The less militant branches that pay reward money to the family of suicide bombers are marching in lock step.

The Reuters and freelance Photographers who doctor photos to make Israelis look guilty when they are innocent are Satanic. The people standing by who allow the photographers to dig up dead babies and put new pacifiers in their mouths and photograph them for Al Jazeera are Satanic. The people standing by who say nothing when terrorists pose teddy bears amid rubble are Satanic.

There is good and evil, and I maybe harsh in this - but I've seen and heard too many good Muslims like Kamil apologize for other Muslims rather than condemn them outright. I've seen too many good people explain the good intentions of Satanic imams who spew venom. The objective data is not arguable. Stands must be taken.
This thread started to be about suicide bombers.

No matter what is said about their motives, these people are going against the teachings of Koran.
In a rare occasion of suicide bombings in Turkey of foreign interest locations, the killed terrorist were buried without Islamic ceremony.
You will never hear me apologizing for any terrorists.

Turkish Turks and Central Asian Turks total about 150 million people and almost all of them are Moslems, how many Turkish suicide bombers we hear about? (I was kind of afraid to say it, it seems like as soon as I say something like this, something happens to contradict me).

By the way, have we also heard of any Iranian suicide bombers?

As far as Al Qaida adopting white children to raise them as suicide bombers, they would not need to, if they can recruit Turks, Bosnians, etc. many of them look like Scandinavians.

Palladin, by mistake I replied to you in the "Spreading hate" thread
http://ai-jane.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4194
I don't know Kamil, the Koran does talk pretty extensively about Holy War, killing the infidels and how dying in a Holy War gets you a ticket to heaven. And it is also pretty clear that "Holy War" is a war to convert people to Islam through force.
Anon,

Some of these things might not literally be part of the Koran or what Muslims call the "Hadiths"(I think these are opinions of high ranking Muslims about the Koran from way back),but certain styles of Islam such as Wahhabis,Salafists,Deobandis,etc have Imams who probably take a verse or 2 out of context and drill into the impressionable young kid these notions.

I honestly believe we have us a serious case of brainwashing ongoing. The problem is,it is ongoing,the numbers are fairly high and without just a massive quantity of devastation on Islamic societies,I don't have a clue how we're going to change their attitudes.

Kamil probably thinks I'm licking my lips wanting that,but I really wish it need not occur,I just fear it will have to occur someday. It beats us being their slaves.

I was challenged about wanting war,but not wanting to join the Army. Well,my kid has served now for 2 tours and is on active reserve status with the warning already of being activated to infantry status,so I have a personal involvement in the war effort,I'm not the "send your kid" kind of guy.
I don't understand the equivocation. Either the Koran says it or it doesn't.
Is there some secret code that says ignore the following:

CREATE TURMOIL AND WAR
From The Koran:

Quote:"So do not become weak-kneed and sue for peace, for you will have the upper hand as God is with you and will not overlook your deeds. Verily the life of this world is no more than a sport and frivolity." (47:35-36)


BECOME TERRORISTS
From The Koran:

Quote:"We shall strike terror into the hearts of unbelievers for ascribing compeers to God, for which He has sent down no sanction" (3:151)


GO OUT AND FIGHT
From The Koran:

Quote:"It is not possible for all believers to go out to fight.  So a part of each section of the population should go to fight in order that the others may acquire understanding of law and divinity, and warn their companions on return so that they may take heed for themselves." (9:122)


EVER WONDER WHY THEY ALWAYS SLIT THE THROAT?
From The Koran:

Quote:"So when you clash with the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overpower them, then hold them in bondage... If God had pleased He could have punished them Himself, but He wills to test some of you through some others.  He will not allow the deeds of those who are killed in the cause of God to go waste." (47:4)

and finally....
HAVE NO MERCY ON THE NON-MUSLIM
From The Koran:

Quote:"Those who are with him [Muhammad] are severe with infidels but compassionate among themselves" (48:29)
William,

I have no equivocation with the Islamic faith,it is a political /religious movement opposed to personal freedom and specifically my country.

All I am doing is attempting to be honest and accurate,it may be that some of the recruitment bs of Islamic "holy warriors" is half truth stuff they create as I do not know enough about the entire Koran to know,nor will I ever as I wouldn't waste time reading it.

I'll tell you this,I personally think Mohammad read the Old Testament Bible(for whatever cause) and some of his intonations were from the Bible. He neither understood nor cared for the spiritual content,but he did understand some of the conduct,rules&regs and borrowed from it. Form without reality,ritual without spiritual content,that kind of "understanding".

His intonations then,are bereft of Divine cause/logic. He simply,in his extreme satanic inspired arrogance,concluded God spoke to him,he was the developer of all Divine instruction and write he did.

Thus,as with the Pharisees of the New Testament(Muslims remind me of the Pharisees most of all),they are attractive gravestones with graves full of dead men's bones,metaphorically. So was Mohammad.

I have no delusions about this religion and it's attack on human freedom.
After passing of Prophet and his companions, there is no concept in Islam obliging Muslims to wage war for propagation or implementation of Islam. The only valid basis for jihad through arms is to end oppression when all other measures have failed.

However, end of these obligation have not stopped some Moslem Nations from waging wars.
Ottoman Emprie was no exception, and they have waged wars including against other Moslem Nations. If Ottoman Empire studied throughly, it becomes very clear that they were much more interested in Empire building than spreading Islam.

Koran has to be studied very carefully to understand the whole concept, for example many Surras explains what to do during the war. However, an earlier Surra more than likely states that wage war if attacked.

Complete 47.4 goes like this
[
Quote:47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
Most Arabic to English translations are dicey at best, but this is the translation acceptable to most scolars, Islamic or forensic:

Surat 47. Muhammad or Al-Qitâl Wrote:
  1. Those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allâh, and in the Message of Prophet Muhammad SAW], and hinder (men) from the Path of Allâh (Islâmic Monotheism), He will render their deeds vain.
  2. That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allâh set forth their parables for mankind.
  3. But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad (SAW), for it is the truth from their Lord, He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state.
  4. So, when you meet (in fight Jihâd in Allâh's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islâm), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allâh to continue in carrying out Jihâd against the disbelievers till they embrace Islâm (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allâh's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allâh, He will never let their deeds be lost,
  5. He will guide them and set right their state.
  6. And admit them to Paradise which He has made known to them (i.e. they will know their places in Paradise more than they used to know their houses in the world).
  7. O you who believe! If you help (in the cause of) Allâh, He will help you, and make your foothold firm.
  8. But those who disbelieve (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), for them is destruction, and (Allâh) will make their deeds vain.
  9. That is because they hate that which Allâh has sent down (this Qur'ân and Islâmic laws, etc.), so He has made their deeds fruitless.
  10. Have they not travelled through the earth, and seen what was the end of those before them? Allâh destroyed them completely and a similar (fate awaits) the disbelievers.
  11. That is because Allâh is the Maula (Lord, Master, Helper, Protector, etc.) of those who believe, and the disbelievers have no Maula (lord, master, helper, protector, etc.).
  12. Certainly! Allâh will admit those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, to Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), while those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as cattle eat, and the Fire will be their abode.
William,

The truth is,most Muslims probably don't really have a good idea what the Koran teaches. Forst of all,most don't exgete from Arabic and the Arabs themselves don't speak the same idioms and language Mohammad did.

I happen to know how hard it is to find the exact isagogical and exegetical facts from the Hebrew and Greek Bibles. The Arabs have the same problems.

I still think the facts on the ground suppport my thesis that you can find support,however non theological it could or could not be,for violence against innocents IF that is where your heart lies and if it is fair,then you will find nice guidance.

One might say the same about the Bible,but we simply do not have Christian terror groups nowdays going around shooting and exploding people at malls and in airplanes very often. We see some of this violence with a minority of Hindus,but there only within India,I don't know of Hindu groups that attack others outside of India.
Palladin,
there is no religious conflict. A social one, masqueraded as religious. Don't care what the Koran says, there are no answers. If necesarry, a cooking book will provide reasons for terror.
Young people in muslim countries are drawn to western culture, that undermines the position of their strong men. You, requiring new markets and costumers, don't leave them alone. Putting oil to the fire. Maybe you could not avoid it anyway, though. Satellite TV and internet are everywhere, their mullahs and chiefs have to gear up to counterweight that western "propaganda".
There were times of more terror than this Islamic one. Decades ago, in Europe. The radical left, radical right, the ethnics. The IRA was partly disguised as a religious group. The same for all of them, social conflicts.
Democrats4Bush2005 Wrote:...We would never kill our babies to kill innocent muslim children. They would do it. Its simple we are right and they are wrong, and you're confused.
You are right, D4B. Not only that, but we would never intentionally target their babies, whether we used our children to do it or not.

I am glad you also noticed the original statement in Fit's post where he said "...God forbid that we should go to war knowing that it would kill thousands and thousands of babies...", which has become kind of a subthread in this thread. It jumped off the screen at me when I was catching up on this topic today.

It is statements like this that make me lose total respect for pacifists and more pacifist-minded people and their beliefs, because strictly adhering to a principle like this absolutely guarantees defeat against most determined enemies, and especially guarantees defeat against an enemy like Radical Islam.

I hope no significant numbers of people who hold such a belief ever win positions of power in the US government. We are in enough danger in this World War Against Radical Islam due to the anti-war-for-political-gain Democrats now infesting our government, media, and society!

If we were to make the decision to go to war or not --- or to judge as worthy specific attacks in a war --- based on not ever harming "babies" or even civilians, we may as well surrender to our enemies now and get it over with. Hell, the US refused to take out Bin Laden during Clinton's presidency when satellite photos showed a swingset near the house where Bin Laden was known to be. So they didnt launch the missiles for fear of killing the children they assumed to be in or near the house where Bin Laden was. :roll:
Quad,

Modern communications and technology make it impossible not to influence their youth and I feel the reactionary within Islam is reacting. It's fairly simple I think.

It's no different than having 2006 western civilization influencing Ghenghis Khan's potential youth and him doing what he could to prevent it.

The influence you lament that we do is not capable of being withdrawn due to modern communications. We in the west must choose to live free or live as slaves because theire is no other option long term to the reactionaries of Islam.
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