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Forget babies. That obscures the basic point of Islam that says Islam is the only thing that may be allowed to exist. Period.

No Judaism, no Christianity, no Hinduism, no Buddhism, no anything other than Islam. Yet Gabriel supposedly wrote in the abrogated surrahs that a non-Muslim can also reach God. Somehow that was erased from faith, wasn't it?

How is Islam directed to spread its one-and-only philosophy across the world? By fire and the sword. How are the conquered to be treated? Forced to convert or die. Except if the poor unsuccessful culture wrought by Islam needs something these dhimmies have, then they are allowed to serve the Islam masters paying jizya. How is this directed to be collected? By holding the dhimmi's beard and slapping him to show dominance while accepting the taxation needed by the impoverished Muslim culture that could not survive without it. How would such help be accepted by a non-Muslim, with thanks.

But wait - at first, only people of the book were allowed to be dhimmi. Jews and Christains were allowed to live - but not Hindus and Buddhist or Zoroastrians. Later, as the culture became more and more needy, the unchanging religion allowed Zoroastrians and some Hindus to live.

Babies are just an extreme example of the larger problem.

How do you propose to answer a very clear challenge of "Us or You!"
Tanzimat period in the Ottoman Empire

Many of the reforms during the Tanzimat period were to graft successful European practices onto the empire. The reforms included universal conscription, educational reform, full equality of religion, the Nationality Law, and the elimination of corruption.

Tanzimat period began under Sultan Abd-ul-Mejid I. On the 3rd November, 1839, Sultan Abdul Mejid issued an organic statute for the general government of the Empire named the Hatt-i Sharif, of Gulhane (the imperial place where it was first proclaimed), and sometimes called the Tanzimat Fermani.

In this very important document, the Sultan stated that he designed “to attempt by new institutions to obtain for the provinces composing the Ottoman Empire the benefits of a good administration", and that these institutions would principally refer to these topics:

The guarantees which will insure our subjects perfect security for their lives, their honor, and their property.

A regular method of establishing and collecting the taxes.

An equally regular method of recruiting, levying the army, and fixing duration of the service.

The edict was followed up with the Hatt-i Hümayan of 1856 which promised full equality of religion, and the Nationality Law of 1869 that created a common Ottoman citizenship irrespective of religious or ethnic divides.

As you can see the reforms in Turkey started way before 1923.
The reforms discussed above took place in the Ottoman Empire, when the Ottoman Empire was considered protector and leader of the Moslem World.
Some of these reforms took hold and was carried over to the Turkish Republic, some failed for various reasons. Including riots by Christians demanding that they pay higher taxes, but be exempt from the military services like they were before.
The problem here is not MY attempting to "turn all Muslims against America or Christians",the problem is Islam teaches this attitude toward all others,not just Christians. The proof is no area on earth where Muslims reside is there NOT VIOLENCE towards the non Muslims.

I don't trust Muslims,I don't think a single poster here trusts Muslims. I don't think 1 poster here can honestly state they would NOT have serious concern if a middle easterner boarded a plane behind them.
If someone can,state it,YOUR religion is the enemy of the United States of America and obviously of all others across the globe as we see terror from one end to the other. Either all are evil but Islam is innocent or the opposite.

I'm not wasting my time debating which religion is God's truth,I've made my choice on that. You've made yours.

***The debate is which religion is animating it's adherents to MURDER AMERICANS.***

The answer is Islam. The rest of your posts denigrating Christianity are a waste of our time,Christianity has not declared war on America,Islam has and your attitude shows me clearly where you stand on this conflict.

Misguided Muslims? Mis guided is when a kid steals some gas for a Friday night,not exploding himself among women at shopping malls. Shooting ladies in the back of their heads. That's Islam,that's not misguided Muslims.
If you call individuals, who go bar hoping, drinking, visiting strip joints, not praying, not following any of the other requirents of the Koran, and finally commiting a mortal sin per Koran by killing themselves and innocent people, good Moslems.

Then, I say Hitler was a good Christian and followed the teachings of Bible, and were supported by Christian Church and most of the Christians to carry out his actions.
[Image: Hitler%20church.jpg]
Kamil,

Islam is the enemy of America,Islam attacked America. Christianity,Judaism,Hinduism and atheism have NOT.

Islam is attacking non Muslims across the globe,the others are NOT.

As far as what I said is a good Muslim,I didn't say a good Muslim drank beer or bar hopped or didn't pray.

I said a good Muslim would act like the Islamic role model,Mohammad and we "INFIDELS" shouldn't be surprised when some of your people act like Zarqawi and Bin laden,that's what I said.

That would be willingness to lie to trick his adversary,,willingness to attack non Muslims at all times with violence and not persuasion and willingness to have sex with his 9 year old "wife". It teaches bizarre notions of female evil based on uncontrollable sexual desires which leads to deadly restrictions on female personal freedom.
That would include teachings of hatred for Jews and Christians and pagans(pretty much covers the globe in Mohammad's days don't it??) So why would I be surprised at Bin Laden or Zarqawi? Why would I be caught off guard by a Muslim who lied to cover his hateful plans like Atta did? Why would this hatred surprise me,knowing the second half of the Koran is full of hatred?

If there had been atheists in Mohammad's days,he would have taught your people to hate them as well.

Honestly Kamil,I don't care if you really think Hitler was a Christian and we Christians loved the man,it's of no consequence really.
My country is at war and I don't like those who attacked America and they are Muslims animated by IMAMS all across this globe,not "misguided youths",not Christians or Jews.
They are not misguided,they are lunatic cowards and murderers and so long as people like YOU want to concentrate on people like ME instead of them,I say you end up assisting them whether it is your desire or not.



Christian culture is so superior to Islamic culture it is not worthy of discussion. Might not have been true in 1000 AD,but it da.mn sure is now.
First of all Islam did not attack America, few not very good Moslem terrorist attacked America. During their attack they also killed many Moslems including 50 Turks.

I know that you hate Islam, and you like to put all of them into terrorist category, but all the known facts about these terrorists show us that they were not following Islam religion.

Fight against terrorism would go much smoother if parrots stoped repeating what they read or hear in the hate media. To win the war against terror we need cooperation not alienation.

As far as Mohammed's wife age, there is no accurate records of her birthday. The 9 years of age has been pulled out from air by some Moslem haters and are repeated by their parrots.
You guys are being to pointed and specific here. Islam, itself, is not pointedly out to get America. Islam is pointedly out to defeat, subjugate, and overwhelm ANY group that does not worship or bow to its will.

We in the US are the principle enemy because we are the leader of the western world, which has been Islam's traditional enemy since it's inception. As the Prizzi's honor thing goes, "It's just business" with the jihadist.
Well, there is another view point. We can clinically evaluate the religion from a pristine clinical viewpoint pointing out chapter and verse about what it should be and should not be. But what most people see is the cultural interrelationship. The average Americanized Muslim has a shared personal image of himself and others that is not good. You can say that a good Muslim does not behave this way - but the mass preponderance of the Muslim population behaves in exactly this way.

I was listening to Joshua's Trail on the WDTKam streaming feed on Saturday morning at 9:00 AM est, and the Black speaker and guests all agreed they cannot enter an Arab-American store (Dearborn Michigan has the world's largest A-A population outside the Middle East) without the store owner muttering under his breath in Arabic: "Slave." The mindset is that The Muslim IS superior and all others are heretical infidels not worthy of the same respect shown to a fellow Muslim. The store owners are so Culturally biased they have no concern that a black person entering his store would have the holy knowledge of his native tongue.

We all can agree that a cultural trait of most from the Middle-East is the tendency to haggle. Go to a store and the seller says: "40" and the buyer answers back: "30." For another Muslim, the seller may settle for 33 or 34. For a non-Muslim he will raise the price to 45 and settle for nothing less.

Go to a garage sale and items that are worth tens of dollars are marked twenty-five cents. Everyone on Earth takes the item as marked except the Muslim, who MUST try to bring the almost non-existent price down. What is culturally frightening is the teamwork by little old Muslim ladies who work garage sales in teams. While one is arguing the price and creating a ruckus, the other is palming some little item of no value - just for the secret game of putting something over on the Infidel.

You can claim the Good Muslim treats others with Peaceful intentions - but they seem culturally unable to treat others as equals.
What you have described is a shame, I'm surprised that Moslem ladies would be stealing anything. Even though is not practiced in most countries anymore the punishment for theft was amputation of an arm, and it did matter if you stole from Moslem or any other religion follower.

Luckily, in the SF Bay Area Moslems have much better reputation, maybe they know their religion better than Moslems living in Michigan.

There are many practices that come from non religious part of the culture.

I heard that not long ago, Black Americans had to sit in the back of buses, give their sit to whites, go to segregated schools, etc.

I'm sure that these behaviour did not come from Christian teachings, but yet it was widely practiced.
Kamil Wrote:What you have described is a shame, I'm surprised that Moslem ladies would be stealing anything. Even though is not practiced in most countries anymore the punishment for theft was amputation of an arm, and it did matter if you stole from Moslem or any other religion follower.

Luckily, in the SF Bay Area Moslems have much better reputation, maybe they know their religion better than Moslems living in Michigan.

There are many practices that come from non religious part of the culture.

I heard that not long ago, Black Americans had to sit in the back of buses, give their sit to whites, go to segregated schools, etc.

I'm sure that these behaviour did not come from Christian teachings, but yet it was widely practiced.

Part of that may be as a result of less first generation muslims there, than in Michigan.
Haggling,

Yes that is part of Middle Eastern, Asian and American Car Buyers' culture S2
No, Kamil, I understand the SF Muslims are no different than their relatives in Michigan. It is a cultural given that they have the right to lie to infidels without punishment and that to not do so forsakes their religion and their culture. The put downs come in many ways and they are all rationalized by the good people as being right. So what if a little old lady puts an apple in her bag without paying for it? Aren't the Infidels supposed to pay jisyk for the allowance of being allowed to live in the same society as Muslims, anyway? The SF shopkeeper will smile just as benignly to a non-Arab speaking Black and call him "slave". It doesn't hurt the customer, does it? He isn't smart enough to understand the Prophet's language, so why worry about it?

It is the same cultural behavior in SF as in Dearborn. It is the Islamic thing to do. It says so in the Koran. That Arabic saying that the enemy of my enemy is my friend goes on to say in parenthesis that he is still not my family and separation must be kept. Dhimmis benefit the Islamic society, but the beard must be pulled and the face slapped upon taking his tribute. The little bit more they charge, and the little smug insults are all part of the jisyk that must be paid.
Koran or Islamic Laws prohibits theft from all people, it does not matter what religion they follow.

Quote: It is forbidden to gain property or wealth by fraud, deceit, theft, or other falsehoods. "...Give just measure and weight, and do not withhold from people the things that are their due." (7:85)
Yeah, it also says, "Trust in Allah, but tie your camel."
I take issue with the idea that Islam itself is NOT the enemy of Americans,Christians,Jews,Hindus,Buddhists and atheists.

This is no normal religion ,it teaches hatred and attacks on others and as William noticed in Michigan,it teaches they are superior to we "filthy infidels".

It is no surprise that my daughter told me an Arab co-student was SO arrogant she thought her sh.it didn't stink when relating to we lowly "filthy infidels". Yet,they come here as Kamil did,they don't live among their "superior people". Somewhat contradictory.

Islam is the enemy of PERSONAL FREEDOM . No less than Marxism was. It couches it's tyranny in religious clothe. At least Karl Marx wasn't that arrogant. Marxism,fascism and Islam all are opponents of the USA and always will be.

YEA Kamil,I hate your religion as I've hated Communism before it and for the same reasons,it doesn't ASK my opinion,it simply seeks to intimidate my compliance or it desires to MURDER me. No difference,you can defend the fascist concepts all you want.

Communism never attacked America either,but Communists spent 24'7 doing so as Muslims do today to my country.
In 1800s Ottoman Empire was still the Caliphate for all other Moslem Nations. During that time period reforms started in the Moslem Nation.

During the same time period, a Christian Nation was getting ready to go War against it's own subjects and fellow Christians who wanted to keep slaves.

Here is a short summary of these reforms:

Quote:Tanzimat period began under Sultan Abd-ul-Mejid I. On the 3rd November, 1839, Sultan Abdul Mejid issued an organic statute for the general government of the Empire named the Hatt-i Sharif, of Gulhane (the imperial place where it was first proclaimed), and sometimes called the Tanzimat Fermani.

In this very important document, the Sultan stated that he designed “to attempt by new institutions to obtain for the provinces composing the Ottoman Empire the benefits of a good administration", and that these institutions would principally refer to these topics:

The guarantees which will insure our subjects perfect security for their lives, their honor, and their property.

A regular method of establishing and collecting the taxes.

An equally regular method of recruiting, levying the army, and fixing duration of the service.

The edict was followed up with the Hatt-i Hümayan of 1856 which promised full equality of religion, and the Nationality Law of 1869 that created a common Ottoman citizenship irrespective of religious or ethnic divides.

As you can see the reforms in Turkey started way before 1923.
If this is true, why isn't it followed by the Wahabbi Islamic jihadists who cut off heads of captives and blow up innocents with suicide bombs strapped to their babies? If it is true, why isn't there a mass movement of honorable Muslims all over the world condemning the actions of these terrorists? Could it be because the Koran overrides the best wishes of good men and extolls extremists to hate and kill and enslave?

If not, why are there hundreds of thousands of terrorist murders - mostly Muslim-against-Muslim all over the world?
William, if you have time please read about Wahabiism.

Short summary about their history, but don't take my word for it and do your own research.

Founded by Muhammad ibn Al-Wahab (1703-1792)

Wahabii fundamentalism in Saudii Arabia was destroyed by cooperation of Ottoman Empire and Egyptians in 1796. Only scattered remnants of it survived in the deep deserts of Arabia.

Britain, in order to weaken the Ottoman Empire immediately started to gather these remnants and managed to place them in Saudii House.
and Taliban another group of Wahabiis was almost destroyed in Afganistan by Russians, but the aid to them again came from the West.
In the interests of honesty and fairness,I must make the following post.

I've known Kamil now for maybe 4-5 years on the net. Kamil has always been an honorable and loyal American. Kamil has served our nation in the Army honorably.

Kamil's cultural background is less what WE deem is ISLAM and more what he calls ALEVIS. Basically,an ALEVI is a religion that takes the following view "Be as good as you can be,live and let live".

They incorporate some Islamic morality(which I have no big qualm with at all) and some non Islamic views. Sunni and Shiite Muslims typically do NOT think they are legitimate Muslims.

When I denigrate Islam,I mean Islam as practiced by most Sunni and Shiite Muslims,I really don't mean Alevis or Druze. I wish all Muslims WERE these 2 branches.

I think Kamil sees Islam as Alevi and I see Islam as the more accepted mass brand and that leads him to defend Islam and leads me to HATE Islam.

The fact is Alevis do NOT teach the hatefulness side of standard Islam. It is also true that HISTORICALLY Turk Muslims have been a less radical group called Hanafi as opposed to the Sufi,Wahhbi,Deobandis of Pakistan,etc.

So,here we might have a misunderstanding based on backgrounds. The main reason I got ticked off at Kamil was his appearing to see the alleged errors of the Jews,but none from the Hezzbollah skunks.

Anyway,I've always held Kamil in high regard. I do regret the hostility I have created lately between us over the issue of Islam.

I am not a dishonest man,I see basic Islam as a very evil cause,but I also think Kamil's image of Islam is what he saw and was exposed to as a child,which was a much more benevolent teaching than what I have come to despise as the equivalent of Hitlerism or Stalinism. It wasn't the moderation of Alevis that attacked America,it was a narrow minded evil of the other brands.
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