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This is an excellent article by Col Ralph Peters, on how hezbollah probably baited and set up Israel to bomb a rocket vehicle, that just happened to be next to a civilian occupied building. I think that he is correct here.

And John Podhoretz brings up the legal aspect of the act, and how the Jews are legally correct in their actions, It's Another Hezbollah Autrocity. but taking this all into account, what should have the Israeli have done in orde to keep such things from happening?

Personally, I think that it was the supreme PR setup, and in that one will have to give Hezbollah high marks for using expediency over principle here. But how to combat such? Do you use other means, or do you expose the action for what they are? And how do you overcome a press that is only interested in displaying it's antiSemitism?

And finally, this site, EU Referendum, states that this was more than just a setup. They state that there are so many holes in the story that this must be a hoax in which the numbers and events are faked to a certain extent. In other words, by taking a small number of bodies, the events are played up to the extent that it suddenly becomes a mass killing. Here in Milking It?, they began the questions, and updated this right here.

I agree that something really stinks here. Note that the same person is shown in many different settings, holding the same body, over and over. This appears to be an example of trying to reap the maximum exposure with the minimum objects. Read it closely and let us know what you think of this.
I would love it if this was a joke,, these are peoples lives and emotions they are playing with afterall.....


Forgive me for this, but I am reminded of an episode of Oprah, she had a famous photographer on or maybe it was a reporter but it was something of that nature. She was also talking about what makes a news story memorable and it's the photograph that is attatched to the story,, they hunt for the one photo that is going to tug at the heartstrings of the commoner. In this case they have found that poor little girl and they have plastered her everywhere that propaganda trying to make something move in the hearts of Americans.

I have yet to read all the articles but needed to get this out. As the photo tugged at my heart and I wondered why,, but there is something much greater going on here.....and if we get caught up in the emotion of it we miss out on the reality of it.
Quote:Hezbollah sized up the situation perfectly. It already had succeeded in feeding the Israelis false intelligence about various sites and vehicles, gulling the IDF into attacks on civilian buses and buildings - followed up by prompt hate-Israel orgies in the media. But Hezbollah needed a "name" event, an apparent atrocity that would echo across continents.

[Image: _41947638_plastic_getty.jpg]

The bodies piled up at the morgue in the nearby city of Tyre. The plastic shrouds bore the names of the dead, and flowers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5228392.stm

Knowing capabilities of Israeli Intelligence, I find it very hard to believe that Hezbullah can feed them false information and Israelis would accept that information.
To me a collective punishment theory to punish Lebanese for not kicking out terrorists is much more plausible.
Ok, here is another latest article on this. I suggest that you go to the link, since there are many links provided for you to follow.

Quote: it is increasingly clear that the Qana “massacre” was a stage-managed Hizballah production, designed precisely to enflame international sentiment against Israel and compel the Israelis to accept a ceasefire that would enable the jihad terrorist group to gain some time to recover from the Israeli attacks. Some of the principal evidence for this:


*The Israeli bombardment took place about midnight, but the house where the civilians were gathered reportedly did not collapse until 8AM. Said Brigadier General Amir Eshel of the Israeli Air Force, “It is difficult for me to believe that they waited eight hours to evacuate it.” Indeed, it strains credulity that not only did these Lebanese civilians remain in a house that had been bombed for eight hours, but peacefully went to sleep in it after the bombing – since the victims were all apparently sleeping, despite continuing Israeli air bombardment in the area, when the building collapsed. Eshel suggested that “it could be that inside the building, things that could eventually cause an explosion were being housed, things that we could not blow up in the attack, and maybe remained there” – in other words, Hizballah bombs and/or weapons.

*Photos of the rescue operation, which were transmitted all over the world and appeared on the front page of the New York Times and other major newspapers, are extremely suspicious. The blog EU Referendum has done important work scrutinizing the photos, finding numerous anomalies. Most notably, the dating of the various photos suggests that the same bodies were paraded before reporters on different occasions, each time as if they had just been pulled from the rubble. In a rebuttal to this charge, AP’s David Bauder rather lamely asserts: “web sites can use such stamps to show when pictures are posted, not taken.” Responds Richard North of EU Referendum: “Note, however, the use of the word ‘can’. He does not say that the ‘date stamps’ are wrong.” EU Referendum has also uncovered strange anomalies in the photos themselves: some workers are wearing different gear in different photos, yet clearly carrying the same corpse. Richard North comments about one of these workers: “It stretches belief to breaking point to argue that, on his way to the ambulance, he took off his helmet, his fluorescent waistcoat and his flack jacket just in order to pose for the cameras putting the body in the wagon – especially as we have the body being placed on the ‘guerney’ – which means the scenes are totally inconsistent.”

*The very existence of these pictures raises more questions. As Israel Insider puts it: “While Hezbollah and its apologists have been claiming that civilians could not freely flee the scene due to Israeli destruction of bridges and roads, the journalists and rescue teams from nearby Tyre had no problem getting there.”

*The Christian Lebanese website LIBANOSCOPIE has charged that Hizballah staged the entire incident in order to stimulate calls for a ceasefire, thereby staving off its destruction by Israel and Lebanese plans to rid themselves of this terrorist plague: “We have it from a credible source that Hizbullah, alarmed by Siniora’s plan, has concocted an incident that would help thwart the negotiations. Knowing full well that Israel will not hesitate to bombard civilian targets, Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative.”

*According to the German scholar Matthias Küntzel, “the Berlin daily the Tagesspiegel published a letter-to-the-editor from Dr. Mounir Herzallah, a Shiite from the South of Lebanon. Dr. Herzallah reports on how Hezbollah-terrorists came to his town, dug a munitions depot and then built a school and a residence directly over it. He writes: ‘Laughing, a local sheikh explained to me that the Jews lose either way: either because the rockets are fired at them or because, if they attack munitions depot, they are condemned by world public opinion on account of the dead civilians.’ Hezbollah, he says, uses the civilian population ‘as a human shield and then when they are dead as propaganda.’”

Tell me Kamil, are you saying that it is simply beyond the pale to think that Hezbollah, or any other honest muslim would stoop to this form of deception, even when the Phrophit has stated that "War is Deceit"?

Quote: Specifically, he taught that lying was permissible in battle. While the doctrines of religious deception (taqiyya and kitman) are most often identified with Shi’ite Islam, and ostensibly rejected by Sunnis, because they were sanctioned by the Prophet, they can still be found in traditions that Sunni Muslims consider reliable, and are practiced among Salafis. Jihadists today have spoken of the usefulness of deceptive practices.
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Here are some more thoughts to ponder. The Eqyptian blogger, "Rantings of The SandMonkey", has this to say about the disporportionant side of the fight.

Quote:Some slightly uncomfortable questions


I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a co-worker, on the concept of the disporportinate Israeli attacks on Lebanon compared to Hezbollah attacks. He pointed to me his dismay at Hezbollah's rockets ineffeciency at hitting targets. He said "If you noticed, they bomb each other almost equally in amounts of missiles shot, but 90% of Hezbollah's rockets miss or hit nothing, while all of Israel's rockets hit something. If Hezbollah had better rockets, the civillian death toll on the Israeli side would be huge, and they would be really hurting by now."

Impressed by this point of view that I haven't considerd before, I asked him what he would've thought, if a Hezbollah rocket had attacked a building in Israel, killing 55 civillians, of which 30 were children. He responded immeidtely "I would've thought it was great! A7san!".

So I repeated the same question to 8 other co-workers, and the responses so far have been as follows: 7 said they would celebrate, and 2 said that such an attack would've been bad, but justified! Yeah! Not a single person said that the death of any civllian, on either side, is an equal tragedy. Civillians dead on our side is tragic, civillian deaths on their side cause for celebration. And if you think I am being unfair or demonizing arabs or whatever, do me a favor and try it at your work place and/or with members of your family. Conduct this little social experiment and see for yourself. The results are very interesting.

This begs another question: If we were the ones who had the superior military machine, would we have shown them any mercy, or any regard to their civillian casualties? Would we have hesitated to wipe them all out? Armed forces, civillians, whatever? Would any of us have felt bad about it at all? Or would we be filled with the feelings of Pride, honor and dignity that we keep talking about day and night?

I am just wondering!

What do you think?
Muslims,what do you EXPECT? Their spiritual hero was a mass murderer dude and a child molestor.

What if Adolf Hitler developed himself a religious following,would you have been surprised at his followers acting out like Adolf?
Palladin Wrote:Muslims,what do you EXPECT? Their spiritual hero was a mass murderer dude and a child molestor.

What if Adolf Hitler developed himself a religious following,would you have been surprised at his followers acting out like Adolf?

Oh, funny thing you should mention that. I am just finishing a SF book, entitles "Freehold". It is about a Libertarian/classic liberal planet that winds up fighting the the combined UN system. At the beginning of one chapter is a quote by Adolf Hitler, and I think that you will find it interesting when thinking of the entire Qana situation.

Quote:"All propoganda has to be popular and has to adapt it's spiritual level to the perception of the least intelligent of those towards whom it intends to direct itself" - Adolf Hitler

Note that the propoganda that is being dished out to the willing accomplises in the press and the highly educated and intelligent muslims in the world is just what Uncle Adolf intended in this straightforward statement. Wink1

If you are interested in the book, "Freehold", you can find a used copy of it right here , for as little as $1.49 plus S/H, It's over 650 pages and is an interesting read. Some of the libertine morals are a bit much, but I would love to see a society like this somewhere. If nothing else, please read the reviews lower down on the novel's page. And in case you are interested, here is his website.
This is how I look at this events.

Terrorists kidnap many people like news agents, truck drivers and other civilians.
I don't expect regular army to do the same.

Terrorists torture and brutally kill some of these hostages, even video tape these gruesome acts.
I won't accept same behavior from the regular troops.

Terrorists kill civilians, tourists, women and children,
I don't expect same from the regular troops.

Since Mohammed has said,
Quote: killing one innocent person is as sinful as killing the whole population of the earth
. If what you saying is true, I doubt that Hezbullah followers are Moslems.
Kamil, let's assume that he did state the quote. My question would be, "When did he say this? Was it early or very late in life, when he would look at things differently?

Also, if he has made this type of statement, how many other quotes say just the opposite? And how do you reconcile this?


One last thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not state that you were a secular Turk? I could be wrong, but I seem to remember you state this. And if you are no longer a worshiper, why did you cease this? Could it be that you feel uncomfortable with the teachings, and what is happening in his name today?

Also, let's agree on one thing. If they are as you say, not really muslims following the prohpet. Then perhaps you should go and tell them that, and see what happens. To them they are absolutely convinced of their faith. How are you to condemn the 'true believers'?
Kamil,

But,until right now,you have refrained from berating Hezzbollah and all they DO is attack civilians. Instead,you berate the Jews who accidentally kill civilians and then often when the scene was primed for it,like shooting rockets next to a civilian building.

It happens to Americans all the time,do you think Zarqawi was morally superior to the average US soldier as you feel Hezzbollah is to Jewish soldiers?

Incidentally,the Qana thing is bs,it's becoming clear,1 more case of these "lions of Islam" using kids to benefit their higher goal of pleasing the bloodthirsty false god they worship

http//www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin080206.php3
You must have not been reading my posts, as always I have indicated that Hezbollah is a terrorist group, and nothing will make me happier to see them get completely wiped out of this world.

However, it is very saddening to see people encouraging regular troops to behave like terrorists.

I accept that some civilians could get killed during war, and few soldiers will behave worse than terrorist and rape women and kill all the witnesses, but those type of incidents are rare and are not encouraged from the top.
Kamil Wrote:You must have not been reading my posts, as always I have indicated that Hezbollah is a terrorist group, and nothing will make me happier to see them get completely wiped out of this world.

However, it is very saddening to see people encouraging regular troops to behave like terrorists.

I accept that some civilians could get killed during war, and few soldiers will behave worse than terrorist and rape women and kill all the witnesses, but those type of incidents are rare and are not encouraged from the top.

Kamil, somewhere along the line you are going to have to decide whether or not the Israeli purposefully hit that building with the intention of killing innocent civilians. Now, as I have stated, I am a vetran and I have pretty much seen it all. I've seen fratracide, innocent civilians killed, and I have also seen civilians used as shields as well. But in none of the three above were the killings intended to kill innocents.

You need to make up your mind here. And if you DO think that is was purposeful, then why did the Israli actually take the time to phone civilians within the battle area to leave? Why would a country go to this trouble? And have you ever seen or heard of anyone actually going to this trouble before? Again, just how much out of the way must a force go before it can use force against it's enemy? How much Kamil?

Incidentially, you did not answer my earlier questions.
John L Wrote:Kamil, let's assume that he did state the quote. My question would be, "When did he say this? Was it early or very late in life, when he would look at things differently?

Also, if he has made this type of statement, how many other quotes say just the opposite? And how do you reconcile this?


One last thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not state that you were a secular Turk? I could be wrong, but I seem to remember you state this. And if you are no longer a worshiper, why did you cease this? Could it be that you feel uncomfortable with the teachings, and what is happening in his name today?

Also, let's agree on one thing. If they are as you say, not really muslims following the prohpet. Then perhaps you should go and tell them that, and see what happens. To them they are absolutely convinced of their faith. How are you to condemn the 'true believers'?

Imams are certified and their sermons are checked in Turkey, the danger of fundamentalist teachings of religion comes from the so called Imams who teach hate.
Koran has to be studied in whole to understand and follow the teachings correctly.

For example if somebody pick certain Surras from Koran in could sound bad, like one Sura that states fight your enemies mercilessly, and kill them where you find them.

However a Surra before that Surra has said that if enemies attack you with the intention of harming your land and your people.

A later Surra says that cease your hostilities when your enemy stops their attacks.

I'm secular, but I have some limited interest in all religions and study them as history when time permits. My parents are no different than me, so I did not change my ways later. However, if you ask me or my parents what religion we follow, without hesitation we would say Islam.

There are many secular Turks who pray occasionally or often, they just don't want somebody telling them when and how to pray.

Secular Ataturk was no exception.
[Image: Ataturk6.jpg]
Ataturk praying before starting his campaign to free Turkey from invading forces. Of course he also could done it to unite Turks who were religious S2
Alright, now don't forget to answer the other question. Do you think that Israel intentionally targeted those civilian? And do you think they purposefully go after innocent people rather than Hezbollah?
I get my news from the following sources
BBC
ABC
Fox
CNN
and Turkish online newspapers of Hurriyet, Milliyet, Yeni Safak and Zaman.
My conclusion from these news sources is that either Israel doing the bombing of civilians intentionally or have very poor intelligence and battle tactics.
I don't know how civilians could leave some of these areas even if they get warnings. Roads have been bombed, buses, cars even ambulances leaving cities have been bombed, and people are completely confused on what to do.

For example if Turkey was having similar problems with PKK in a town near Turkish border. I would not expect Turkey to bomb a house where there might be 70 civilians and a few PKK terrorist hiding. I would expect ground troops to go in and flush the PKK members from their hiding places to neutralize them.
Well, if you believe that it was intentional, then I can never change your opinion, because you are not willing to use your own logic. Logic first of all says that for the Israeli to intentionally target civilians means that they are indeed evil. But how anyone, knowing that Israel publically and actively attempts to get the people to leave, can think that they would violate basic human morality, and tells me two things. First, you Want to believe this, in spite of logic. And Two, you must think Jews to be less than human equivilency to others. That is how so many of them were so easily murdered: they were thought sub-human by many in the past.

Further logic states that targeting innocents would not be practical because in today's IT environment the PR campaign would be Terrible for them, and thus not be in their interests. Also, using precision munitions on those type of targets would take away the weapon from legitimate targets. Those weapons are terribly expensive. No body in their right mind would even consider using them in a situation where they would be wasted.

Also, another thought. Where were the men? Why was it only women and children? Could they be away fighting for Hezbollah? They carried no weapons and would not be a danger to the Israelis, so why go for them.

Again, using logic, who would you think would benefit from this? If you say Hezbollah, YOU WIN!!

Frankly, I Never watch CNN, OR the Beeb. They are simply too biased on this. And it is natural for the MSM to be biased for the Arabs. When journalists are sent out they are sent to many countries, and they learn to emphatise with that country they report on. There are many Arab and muslim countries, and there is only ONE Jewish one. Therefore, the numbers are against them. Further, the ones being sent to Israel are almost always Jews themselves, because no Arab country would accept them anyway.

This entire thing requires independent logic, and if you rely on the likes of the Beeb and CNN, I have sympathy for you. That is why more Americans watch Fox than all the other news sites COMBINED. Fox is naturally more tratidional than the others, but they go out of their way to present both sides.

I can't help you anymore, but believing that Israel did this on purpose is like believing that man induced Global Warming is a threat to the planet. It is Junk Science, and what is happening in the news with this war is mostly Junk News. Sorry, but that is how I see it, and time will bear me out on this, I'm sure.

Unlike many on my side, I don't really believe that the Hezbollah actively go out of their ways to have innocents killed, but they don't go out of their way to ensure their safety, because they KNOW that it is great PR when they are killed. It's a win/win for them. With Israel it's a lose/lose. If you don't see this, you are afflicted with self-induced blindness.
The thing is Kamil,you have left out of your equation that the terror groups USE humans to advance their causes. This Qana incident is just that

http//www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=109072

http//web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/9036.htm

Here's another example for Islamic propaganda. You probably bought this as well. All I can say is you need to experince personally some of the attacks of this religion and let's see how easy you are compared to the Jews

http//www.nypost.com/entertainment/lefty_net_off_wlib_entertainment_john_mainelli.htm

Here's your fellow Islamic adherent bragging about attacking civilians. This is currently the hero of the Islamic world

http//news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060803/ts_nm/mideast1_dc
Reuters gets caught like CNN assisting the jihad. With western news agencies doing the pr work for Mohammad,the Muslims can sort of take it easy and rest

http//www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html
I couldn't resist these images.

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