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Screw fascists,they have no human right to be respected.


http//arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=84514&d=29&m=6&y=2006
Quote:STRASBOURG, 29 June 2006 — The incitement to hatred of Islam should be considered a crime against humanity, Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in a speech before the Council of Europe in Strasbourg yesterday.

“Just as anti-Semitism is a crime against humanity, so should Islamophobia be regarded,” Erdogan said. Erdogan warned against the growing phobia against Islam and foreigners in the world in which “we Muslims feel increasingly under siege.”

Referring to the row over blasphemous cartoons that were originally printed in a Danish newspaper, he said freedom of expression should not be confused with the freedom to insult.

This is strictly a case where what may be good enough for others is not good enough for us as well. Where are his words about radical Ialam? Where is his condemnation of murders, rapes, and violence to non-Muslims........by fellow Muslims?
if all Moslems countries followed the Moslem religion advocated by Tayip Erdogan and Turks in general, there would have been insignificant amount of Islamic terrorism in the world.
I thought Islam preached that there was one Koran and one Prophet and all Muslims must toe the same line?

If there are differences then the religion, itself, has failed, hasn't it?
every religion could be considered a failure.

I for one did not blame Jim Jones's and David Courache's actions to religion. The same people would have caused the same problems no matter what religion they were following.

Looking back at history, I really can't blame Christianity or Catcholism for the action of the so called Christian Crusader when they slaughtered Moslems, Jews and fellow Christians. Those actions were done by some disturbed people by using religion to motivate soldiers and peasants they were not true Christians (at least I hope so).
Jim Jones' people may have drunk purple Kool-aid and then gone straight to Heaven. If their hearts were pure, then even if tricked to perform what some consider monstrous, they were received in Heaven by a loving God. Same thing with David Koresh. He was certainly not the monster depicted by the media. He was always approachable by the local constabulary and only resisted a direct confrontation by non-negotiable attackers to preserve the families and children in the church property. He was already cleared of all child-endangerment or abuse charges long before the BATF and FBI went in after him. The only charge was a missing tax stamp for a legal sale of a rifle which could have been set right by post-payment. If he believed an interpretation of his Faith that seemed monstrous, I blame the BATF and FBI for fanning the flame of that belief. Everything they did substantiated the specific tenets of his church.

All religions are failures except Christianity, because only Christianity embraced both Free enterprise and science as an understandable aspect of their God. Only Christian cultures thrive. Islam survived past the fifth century only by dhimmitude. Neither Greece nor Rome used science. That was only a Christian development. The current ascendancy of mankind has come from what Christianity has given to the world.
Quote:Neither Greece nor Rome used science. That was only a Christian development. The current ascendancy of mankind has come from what Christianity has given to the world.

Yes, all the modern mass killing War Machines and Tools were developed by Christian Nations.
Kamil Wrote:
Quote:Neither Greece nor Rome used science. That was only a Christian development. The current ascendancy of mankind has come from what Christianity has given to the world.

Yes, all the modern mass killing War Machines and Tools were developed by Christian Nations.

A bit of an over statement Kamil. The reason for what you are referring is because Western, not necessarily Christian, nations were on the leading edge of science and Warfare. They were quite efficient at almost everything that did, so why not killing?

I see nothing about Christian here in mass killings, since the worst were the Union of Soviet Socialists, the NAZIS, and other nations that promoted Collectivist ideology.
WmLambert Wrote:All religions are failures except Christianity, because only Christianity embraced both Free enterprise and science as an understandable aspect of their God. Only Christian cultures thrive. Islam survived past the fifth century only by dhimmitude. Neither Greece nor Rome used science. That was only a Christian development. The current ascendancy of mankind has come from what Christianity has given to the world.

Can you say, ... "Christian Goof?"
One of the major encounters between Moslem and Western Christians occured in 1099 in Jerusalem when Christian Crusaders took over the city and slaughtered all the Jewish and Moslem inhabitants and did not allow any Jews or Moslems to live or visit the city.
In contrast prior to 1099 when Jerusalem was under Islamic rule, Christians, Jews and Moslems were permitted to live in the city and visit it as they pleased.
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In 638, the city was taken by the advancing Muslim forces. The rights of the non-Muslims under Islam were governed by the Pact of Umar and Christians and Jews living in the city were granted autonomy in exchange for a required poll tax. Whereas the Byzantine Christian authorities had not tolerated the presence of Jews within the walls of the city, the Muslim rulers allowed the reestablishment of a Jewish community.<ref>Peter, 186</ref> After the treaty of Capitulation signed with the Byzantines, Umar ordered the Patriarch Sophronius to guide him and those who accompanied him to the sanctuary of King David where he later decided to build a mosque in front of the Rock. The mosque became known as Masjid al Aqsa.

In 1099, the city was conquered by the First Crusaders who slaughtered most of its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants. Series of conquests followed: in 1187 by Saladin, 1244 by the Kharezmian Tatars, 1247 by the Egyptians, 1259 by the Mongols, 1260 by the Mamelukes and in 1517, by the Ottoman Turks. In 1917, the British Army led by General Allenby captured the city.
To read the whole article click on: http://godseye.com/wiki/index.php?title=Jerusalem
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To me it seems like fanatic Christians could be easily motivated to become Faschists like Hitler, and will feel no guilt at all in slaughtering or enslaving non Christians or people who might have different color of skin, because they think God is on their side and they are better than anybody else.
Check out images posted at this URL

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Check out these articles

Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism (quotes from Mein Kampf)
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. This text presents selected quotes from the infamous anti-Semite himself.
From URL: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------

The Christianity of Hitler revealed in his speeches and proclamations
Hitler's own words reveal his feelings for God, Christianity and faith. Taken from speeches made by Hitler from the 1922 to 1939.

From URL: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
b5b,

I disagree with William's assertions to a large extent as well,but William is not demanding you or others NOT harangue him or Christians. Erdogan and typical fascist Muslims do.

Why don't you lefties get more concerned for this? We Christians are often goofy,but not inso far as trying to remove your freedom from disagreeing with us,Muslims often do.

As Kamil states,Turks are the least Muslim of all Muslims and here their PM is demanding everyone be outlawed that would speak what they see as the truth about that fascist political system.

Here's the third attack on a Christian minister in Turkey in a few months,you cannot tell me these idiots are not growing from a more conducive hateful culture.

http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5139408.stm
Just a few days ago Taliban declared Turkey to be placed in the hit list of the so called Islamist fighters. Many Moslem nations oppose Taliban, but either have no power to strongly oppose them, or are afraid of upseting them. However, Erdogan has openly condemned all terrorist actions, during his administration Turkey managed to get a moderate Turk elected to the World Islamic Congress. Reforming some hard core fanatic Moslems will take time, and will need cooperation from many countries. Some of the criticism of the West from Erdogan is directed at the other Moslem countries to gain wider support for the intended reforms.


Here is Richard Perle's assesment of AKP
Richard Perle, the famed “Prince of Darkness,” in Istanbul to participate in the 8th International Conference on Security organized by the ARI Movement, suggested that the Strategic Vision Document will open new doors in Turkish-American relations.

The document may be a turning point in normalizing relationships, Perle commented.

“Throughout my life, I have seen that the two countries have good relationships. Relations were cordial when I was in the government. The preparation of this document will help strengthen relationships in the future.”

‘I have no worries about an Islamist administration’

Perle also opposed the criticism of the conservative wing of the US administration against Turkey’s ruling AKP.

Perle, commenting on the negative statements that the AKP government has a secret agenda, does not believe Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is planning to establish an Islamist state.

Perle said some people within the party, and a small minority outside, may oppose Erdogan. “I do not believe the majority in Turkey wants to change the secular democracy to an Islamic administration. I have no such concern.”
Full article at: http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20060701095109663
Kamil,

At the end of the day,Turkey's PM is calling for outlawing people like me speaking what we see as the facts about Islam.

That is a fascist thought process.

I do not call for he or others to be restricted from berating either me,America or Christ Himself,we are free by God's edict to decide such things and none of us need Turkey's PM to force us to do what he desire. Not Erdogan,Bin Laden or Mullah Omar.
following comments
Quote:STRASBOURG, 29 June 2006 — The incitement to hatred of Islam should be considered a crime against humanity, Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in a speech before the Council of Europe in Strasbourg yesterday.

“Just as anti-Semitism is a crime against humanity, so should Islamophobia be regarded,” Erdogan said. Erdogan warned against the growing phobia against Islam and foreigners in the world in which “we Muslims feel increasingly under siege.”

That is how hatred of Jews started in Europe, resulting in millions of deaths.
I think he has every right to say "stop throwing fuel into fire".
He is just exercising his freedom of speech S2
Palladin:

You're going to make me put a disclaimer on everything I say, "The above should not be taken to indicate that I condone the actions of the Islamists either."
The crusades were in reaction to the Islamic onslaught.

It took centuries for Christians to get serious about them and toss them out of Europe. The actions taken in the Christian Holy Lands were generally fair and non-vindictive. There were major abuses and an occasional blood-letting, but far more on the other side.
The Third Crusade was not to liberate Jerusalem, but to rob, kill and enslave Orthodox Christians.

Following is an excerpt from
Nicholas A. Cooke's article from
Communicant of St. Michael the Archangel Orthodox Church, Concord, CA
Diocese of the West, Orthodox Church in America


Quote:After receiving absolution, the Crusaders attacked. Constantinople fell after three days of the final, furious attack by land and by sea. Once inside the walls, the Crusaders began an orgy of carnage, brutality and vandalism not seen in Europe since the barbarians invaded seven centuries earlier. No one was spared: not bishop, priest, nun, man, woman or child. Few women escaped being violated, whether at home, in the street, or in the convent. Fires were started throughout the city. The butchery ended only when the Crusaders were so tired that they no longer could lift their swords. Then began looting and profanation on a scale unparalleled in history. A mob rushed into Santa Sophia. With the Image of the Pantacrator looking down upon them from the great dome, they broke up the altar for its gold content, smashed the icons, threw the Holy Gifts to the floor, seized the church vessels for their Jewels, and tore mosaics and tapestries from the walls. Horses and mules were brought into the church the better to carry off the sacred vessels, gold, silver, and whatever else they could gather. Drunken soldiers drank from chalices and ate from patens while riding asses draped with priestly vestments. A mocking prostitute was placed on the Patriarch's chair to dance and sing obscene songs. This pattern of pilferage and desecration was repeated in churches, monasteries and palaces throughout the city. The tombs of the emperors were rifled, and all of the classical statues and monuments which had survived from ancient Greece and imperial Rome were destroyed. One writer wrote that never in history had so much beauty, so much superb craftsmanship been so wantonly destroyed in so short a space of time. What was not carried off was burned, smashed, melted down for its precious metal content, or stripped for its jewels.

After the killing, after the city had been subdued, there began a slow and steady removal of treasures out of the Orthodox temples and into the cathedrals, churches, monasteries, convents, cities and towns of Latin Europe. Some of these items had been venerated, cherished, and protected for centuries, others for a millennium. Now they were being carted away from over a hundred and fifty churches: altars, altar screens, tabernacles, antimins, icons, icon frames, processional, pectoral and altar crosses, gold and silver chains, panagias, mitres, croziers, chalices, patens, star covers and spears, Gospels, Epistle books, ladles, church plate, censers, votive lights, relics, candelabra, epitaphia, fans, reliquaries, vestments, banners, manuscripts, miniatures, ivories, carvings, mosaics, thrones, tapestries, furniture and architectural items. Cartloads of gold and silver from Santa Sophia found their way into the Vatican treasury. Constantinople had become the gold mine which supplied Latin Christendom.

The wealth was so great that the looting continued for sixty years. A century earlier, after the First Crusade, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Edessa were similarly stripped for a period of forty years. Now it was happening to the imperial city. A scandalous traffic in relics was started. The head of St. John the Baptist was carried off to Amiens. Amalfi, Italy took the head of St. Andrew the First-Called from the Church of the Holy Apostles, along with a set of heavy bronze doors. The bishop of Soissons shipped home the head of St. Stephen and a relic of St. John. The remains of St. Clement, pillaged from the Church of St. Theodosia, were taken to Cluny. St. Albans received the relics of St. Marina. Halbstadt claimed the relics of St. James. The True Cross was divided up among the barons, with a portion sent to the pope, and another fragment taken to Paris. A priceless gold and enamel reliquary encrusted with jewels, containing a fragment of the Wood wound up in a nunnery in Steuben. King Louis IX of France paid 10,000 silver marks for the "true" Crown of Thorns, for which he built St. Chapells in Paris
.


Whole article is at http://aggreen.net/church_history/1204_sack.html
Kamil Wrote:The Third Crusade was not to liberate Jerusalem, but to rob, kill and enslave Orthodox Christians.

Following is an excerpt from
Nicholas A. Cooke's article from
Communicant of St. Michael the Archangel Orthodox Church, Concord, CA
Diocese of the West, Orthodox Church in America


Quote:After receiving absolution, the Crusaders attacked. Constantinople fell after three days of the final, furious attack by land and by sea. Once inside the walls, the Crusaders began an orgy of carnage, brutality and vandalism not seen in Europe since the barbarians invaded seven centuries earlier. No one was spared: not bishop, priest, nun, man, woman or child. Few women escaped being violated, whether at home, in the street, or in the convent. Fires were started throughout the city. The butchery ended only when the Crusaders were so tired that they no longer could lift their swords. Then began looting and profanation on a scale unparalleled in history. A mob rushed into Santa Sophia. With the Image of the Pantacrator looking down upon them from the great dome, they broke up the altar for its gold content, smashed the icons, threw the Holy Gifts to the floor, seized the church vessels for their Jewels, and tore mosaics and tapestries from the walls. Horses and mules were brought into the church the better to carry off the sacred vessels, gold, silver, and whatever else they could gather. Drunken soldiers drank from chalices and ate from patens while riding asses draped with priestly vestments. A mocking prostitute was placed on the Patriarch's chair to dance and sing obscene songs. This pattern of pilferage and desecration was repeated in churches, monasteries and palaces throughout the city. The tombs of the emperors were rifled, and all of the classical statues and monuments which had survived from ancient Greece and imperial Rome were destroyed. One writer wrote that never in history had so much beauty, so much superb craftsmanship been so wantonly destroyed in so short a space of time. What was not carried off was burned, smashed, melted down for its precious metal content, or stripped for its jewels.

After the killing, after the city had been subdued, there began a slow and steady removal of treasures out of the Orthodox temples and into the cathedrals, churches, monasteries, convents, cities and towns of Latin Europe. Some of these items had been venerated, cherished, and protected for centuries, others for a millennium. Now they were being carted away from over a hundred and fifty churches: altars, altar screens, tabernacles, antimins, icons, icon frames, processional, pectoral and altar crosses, gold and silver chains, panagias, mitres, croziers, chalices, patens, star covers and spears, Gospels, Epistle books, ladles, church plate, censers, votive lights, relics, candelabra, epitaphia, fans, reliquaries, vestments, banners, manuscripts, miniatures, ivories, carvings, mosaics, thrones, tapestries, furniture and architectural items. Cartloads of gold and silver from Santa Sophia found their way into the Vatican treasury. Constantinople had become the gold mine which supplied Latin Christendom.

The wealth was so great that the looting continued for sixty years. A century earlier, after the First Crusade, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Edessa were similarly stripped for a period of forty years. Now it was happening to the imperial city. A scandalous traffic in relics was started. The head of St. John the Baptist was carried off to Amiens. Amalfi, Italy took the head of St. Andrew the First-Called from the Church of the Holy Apostles, along with a set of heavy bronze doors. The bishop of Soissons shipped home the head of St. Stephen and a relic of St. John. The remains of St. Clement, pillaged from the Church of St. Theodosia, were taken to Cluny. St. Albans received the relics of St. Marina. Halbstadt claimed the relics of St. James. The True Cross was divided up among the barons, with a portion sent to the pope, and another fragment taken to Paris. A priceless gold and enamel reliquary encrusted with jewels, containing a fragment of the Wood wound up in a nunnery in Steuben. King Louis IX of France paid 10,000 silver marks for the "true" Crown of Thorns, for which he built St. Chapells in Paris
.


Whole article is at http://aggreen.net/church_history/1204_sack.html
I agree...the Western and Eastern church had some serious disagreements at this time....at least this is what I was taught at my church, which is Greek Orthodox.

The Eastern church was very rich, however, there were weak militarily speaking, which made them a target by Roman Catholics and Muslims.
Actually, take this down a notch to more easily understandable group dynamics, and understand that the Catholic church was of two minds, the Pious and the Powerful. Europe, thanks to science engendered by Christianity had progressed beyond the amassed wealth and knowledge of ancient days, allowing Charles Martell to drive off more numerous Saracen forces with technology - not only unused by the Muslim military, but not tolerated by them as heretical affectations by infidels. See: Christianity provided the foundation for science through the ages

For centuries the Power of the Church was like a magnet, drawing off the wealth of Europe to Rome. The Piety of the Church resisted such money grubbing with vows of poverty and Faith. The nobles and wealthy landowners of Europe found the piety-side of the church to their liking, allowing them to keep the wealth of their fiefdoms at home. It was this schism as much as anything that prompted religiously pious Nobility to see the opportunity to fight for the Church - even if against heretical offshoots of their own church. Afterall - nothing like a reformed drunk, neh?
b5b,

I'm over disclaimers. Islam declared war on the USA in the early 1990s,we may as well face reality. Just because it's not all out war,it's still war and all Muslims are for the nuts to prevail at least when it is only in opposition to the USA. If it hurts the locals,they react against the nuts,but as far as I can discern,they hope we fail and the nuts prevail when they are not threatened.

Kamil,

I don't see how a guy living here this long can see that as anything but an attempt to crush free speech. I'd like to see Erdogan try and enforce his no anti islamic speech program,inside his own state for starters.
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