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Full Version: Brit MI-5 Really Screwed up on Terror Tracking
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This is worse than our failure,they really had an excellent view of this thing. We argue about the NSA program,but if another hit comes and it has to,we'll blame Bush for not doing enough. We would be right to.




http//www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2179602,00.html
How could they fail like that ever after 9/11? How much more obvious does it need to get?

Day by day, i get the feeling that millions are going to die in the Mohamedan Wars...
They are afraid of pc considerations,Muslims with their leftist allies have effectively jammed the western defense operations against Islamic assaults,literal and legal.

We're playing a weak hand against a weak enemy when we're strong.That ain't cool.
I think you are misunderstanding this. There was a report on whether MI5 could have done more about 7/7, and they said that it was blame-free. MI5 obviously hid this tape because if they hadn't they would have been blamed for the bombings.
You can't say it's to do with political correctness or something, because we have 30 attempted terrorists in jail over 3 bomb plots foiled by our security services.
Muneris,

I thought MI-5 didn't follow through because of pc fear of prosecuting Islamics. That's why I said pc. If they just failed due to incompetence,then I was wrong to have used that terminology.

I think we have tons of pc infecting our public discourse as relates to Islamics and others such as illegal alien Mexicans.

We need to return to our heritage and piss on the opinions of anyone opposing what we desire here.
Oh I agree with you on the PC point.

Its not really incompetence, at least not really bad incompetence, they're just drastically understaffed. I don't know how many people are in the CIA, but there is only 3000 in MI5, and there was only 1000 until 2002, when Blair decided they would be needed to fight terrorism. SO 2000 of them have only done it for a few years. A lot of anti-terrorism work has to be done by the Police, and they just aren't as good.
Muneris,

I don't have a clue how large the CIAis,but I do know it is ineffective and hopefully will be destroyed in the next deacde with a new and improved intelligence section.

FYI,we here do not have an equivalent of an MI-5. The FBI cannot do what MI-5 does here.
Who tracks suspected terrorists then? I would have thought that would be exactly what the FBI would do.

I know people say the CIA are incompetent ("How do you know the CIA didn't kill JK? He's dead, isn't he!) but I always thought that was just a joke. What makes you think they really are?
The FBI cannot spy on or search American citizens without warrants and only a small part of FBI's legal authority even involves counter espionage work,most of it is normal police functions that involve interstate crimes. Like bank robberies,driving a kidnapped victim across state lines,etc.

The CIA has failed in so many instances it has become ludicrous. They didn't have the first clue the USSR was imploding,they didn't have the first clue the Shah of Iran was imploding,they got Khaddafi's WMD program wrong on the low side,same with Hussein's in 1991 and got Hussein's wrong on the high side in 2003.

They have had successes,but my feeling is the rate they suck up taxpayer cash,they SUCK and need to be replaced with a serious foreign intell service or we need to get out of the global police program.
What do you think could be done to improve them?

Also, how hard is it for the FBI to get warrants?
Muneris the CIA and FBI are the equivalent of MI-5 and MI-6. In the early 70's after the Watergate scandal, Jimmy Carter's top spy master was Stanfield Turner. Watergate was caused because Nixon reacted to the infestation of unreliable agents and activists within the agencies leaking information directly affecting the Vietnam war. When G. Gordon Liddy and the "Plumbers" got caught tracking the leakers back to the Democrat National Headquarters at the Watergate Hotel, the leakers won. Turner fired almost a thousand covert agents to further neuter the Intelligence community, a throwaway gesture to the legislature, to unsuccessfully ward off further efforts to castrate what they considered was an "Imperial Presidency."

Since then, the U.S. Congress has attacked the FBI and CIA constantly. Reagan tried to restore what he could, but Clinton reverted back to the Carter mode and outlawed espionage information from getting into the hands of civil law officers - which meant the CIA and FDI couldn't compare notes and share information. The Jamie Gorelick memo was an extreme example of a wall that protected Clinton's espionage scandal of military technology going to China in exchange for illegal fundraising information linking money from the PRC and the Riaddy's. The FBI wasn't allowed to link the payoffs to treason.

MI-5 is not immune to this interplay of politics and legal restraints. Peter Wright wrote about the same problems in Spycatcher.
Gents,

The FBI is a police organization,I thought MI-5 was more a counter intelligence spy organization???? If I'm wrong,then William is right. Does MI-5 go around arresting kidnappers that took a person from London to Leeds? That's an example of what the FBI can do.

The FBI cannot secretly spy on American citizens without warrants and warrants are administered when the FBI can show a federal judge they have "probable cause" a crime has BEEN COMMITTED or is in the midst of being COMMITTED.

That is a far cry from MI-5 which is an internal spy agency.
Military Intelligence - 5 is concerned with internal intelligence - simlar to the FBI, MI-6 is for external espionage activities, There was a section N that no one talks about, named for "Newtown" but what it was may no longer exist.

There are rules and regulations that keep them apart - but from what I understand, much of their separateness comes from the pseudo-nobility who sit at the helm keeping their own fiefdoms sancrosanct.

I urge you to get a copy of Spycatcher. It was banned in Great Britain, you know. He was the real-life first scientist spy who "Q" in the James Bond movies was modeled after.
W,

MI-5 is a spy organization,the FBI is a federal police organization with tough restrictions on what they can do. I don't see the similarities you do between the 2 organizations.
Then read Spycatcher, because Wright defined their turf very thoroughly. Scotland Yard and MI5 have much in common, as do the FBI, BATF, and Treasury. Each has assigned responsibilities, and in Great Britain, Heaven help the MI6 agent who invades the territory of MI5.

MI5 is more analysis than spy. One of the things that MI5 can do that no one in the world can do better is follow people without being spotted. Another is a room full of keys. Every locked door ever identified has a key hanging on a hook for it. They rarely need to break in, they just pick up a duplicate key. They also have a team of old women who have an uncanny ability to pick out faces in group photos and put them together with names. The best computer programs can't match faces as well or as fast as they do.