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1 more in a series of events that leads me to question WHY Americans support alliances with folks that dislike us this much? If I were a US soldier,I'd fear a Turk shooting me in the back as much as any other potential enemy we might face. Not to pick on Turks,I have said the same for most Europeans.



http//www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=FY055N5EBYQBTQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2006/02/26/wfilm26.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/02/26/ixworld.html
Before we jump to conclusions:

Do we know that this movie represents something worse than, for example, Michael Moore's "work"?
It's premise is GI's are SS storm troopers and the main medic is a Jew who drinks the blood of Muslims.

I agree,Moore's works are equally hostile to America(but not as insane),but what is the point there,I would not want to freely associate with a nation that thought like Moore EITHER?

Again,WHY does any American want us associating with most the nations we do? Are we truly delusional? I'm beginning to think so frankly.
First of all, personally I wish that movie was not made.
However, when a country becomes more democratic, governments ability to censor and prevent undesired news and all other media events including movies diminish.

This movie starts with the Suleymania incident, when 11 Turkish Special forces were taken prisoners in N. Iraq by US forces.
(US officially was made aware of Turkish Special forces presence in N. Iraq by Turkish Government)
American soldiers were guided by PKK members to the location of these Turkish soldiers, bags were placed on the captured soldiers before taken to a prison. Captive soldiers and officers were severely beaten by the American enlisted men for several days during their interrogation.
Two Turkish translators used by US soldiers during this interrogation quit their jobs, and went to Turkey to report the incident blow by blow to the Turkish media.
After about one week of detention Turkish soldiers were released and a low level apology was given by Americans to the soldiers and to the Turkish government.
In real life, the Colonel in charge of the Turkish troops was under suicide watch for several months.
In the movie he commits suicide.
In real life a wedding party in Iraq was bombed by US warplanes by mistake and 22 people died in the wedding party.
In the movie, the American troops attack the wedding party and shoot the guests.

Rest of the movie is mostly fiction with some altered realities.

-------------------------------------------------------
Now about another movie the Midnight Express from Wikipedia

Differences between the book and the movie
There are important differences between the cinematographic and the literary versions of Midnight Express. Major liberties were taken with the real events, which, while defensible from the point of view of dramatic cinema, have upset Turkish viewers. Here are some obvious liberties taken with regard to the book:

The hero's only fault in the movie is the occasional use of hashish. In the book, Hayes admits that he has been fequent user of drugs and that his addiction became more severe during his imprisonment. He also admits that he illegally carried hashish through Europe on several occasions (Billy Hayes, Midnight-Express, Presse de la Cité, coll. Pocket, 1987, p. 11).
Another fiction is the scenes of rape. Billy Hayes never claimed to be raped by his Turkish warders or that he ever suffered any sexual violence. On the other hand, he had a consensual homosexual relationship with one of the western prisoners, which is not revealed in the movie.
In the movie Billy Hayes is in Turkey with his girlfriend, whereas he was alone in the original story. Nevertheless, in the movie, the love story is a main dramatic driving force.
In the movie insults are aimed at Turks as a people that do not occur in the book and which the screen writer Oliver Stone later apologized for.

There are different endings between the cinematographic and literary versions of Midnight Express. While in the narrative, the hero is moved to another prison from which he escaped by sea, in the movie this passage has been replaced by a violence scene in which he murders the warder in chief.

Screenwriter's apology
When he visited Turkey in 2004, screenwriter Oliver Stone, who won an Academy Award for his adaptation, apologised to Turkey for the film. He admitted that he did not do any research about the so called "true story" of Billy Hayes before he wrote the script.
Kamil,

The movie is FINE by me,the response of Turks is not fine by me.

I don't wish harm on Turks or Turkey,but I do wish we would NOT have contractural security arrangements with Turkey because the people simply are now quite hostile to Americans.

I feel the same way about all of Europe EX 2 eastern European states,so don't think I'm picking on Turks. I want the USA OUT of NATO sooner the better.

As far as the movie Stone made about Billy,I saw it years ago,my take was when EVER you leave America,you are taking a huge risk,I didn't take away from that movie that Turkey would be worse than Greece,India or Mexico as relates to human freedom.

It has always been taught here that when you exit the USA,you exit the uniquely free paradigm we exist in.
Quote:The movie is FINE by me,the response of Turks is not fine by me

What kind of reaction did Turks have?

I'm communicating through E-mails with several Americans living in Turkey, they tell me that everything is fine for them.
Kamil,

They are flocking to see this insane movie that could have as easily been thought up by Julius Streicher. The Jewish American medic drinks Muslim blood.

If I did live in Turkey,I'd be re-considering it about now. IN 1980 I put in an application for a job in Saudi Arabia,I would be a fool to move there in 2006,in 1980 it seemd quite reasonable.

Not comparing Turkey's polity to Saudis,but the same fears could apply eventually. In fact,the same fears could apply to liberal Turks over time,females and those who think it's OK to act like we do for example.

I fear Turkey is leaning the wrong direction here slowly.

Incidentally,Achilles is Palladin.
Achilles Wrote:Incidentally,Achilles is Palladin.

You got me worried for a second,...seeing a mod makes me look for a troll around... Wink1

Nay, seriously, this is of the same order as Moore or some anti-Vietnam war flicks. In fact, it is even more understandable: Moore was bashing his own country, the Turkish director was bashing another.

I'm not saying it is nice or justifying this in any way, but things like this are a fact of life.

Now, adding the antisemitic component to the movie may be a warning sign indeed and may be connected to Turkey slowly slipping toward islamism.

-------------------

Quote: They are flocking to see this insane movie that could have as easily been thought up by Julius Streicher. The Jewish American medic drinks Muslim blood.

And how many went to see Michael Moore here?
MV,

Kamil disagrees,but I sense Turkey is slowly advancing towards conservative Islamic wooing,not away from it. That's bad because in this era,anti semitism is part of conservative Islam(didn't used to be).

Not to say it is there,not nearly there,but a decade from now I bet you see girls dressing far more conservatively than today.

Over at www.thebigpharaoh.com he posted a series of photos a while back showing Egyptian women swimming in 1940 and today. It was startling,you could not tell the Egyptian lady from the British lady,you sure can in 2006 and I think that's a very bad sign myself. Our relatonship with Egypt is going to undergo dramatic shifts as well.

I know I'm a tired old record,but I see no reason for us to have the global empire we seek to lead and how it will continue with allies like these 2 and most of Europe defies reason,IMO.
Achilles Wrote:MV,

Kamil disagrees,but I sense Turkey is slowly advancing towards conservative Islamic wooing,not away from it.

This is almost exactly what I said above. S1

Quote:That's bad because in this era,anti semitism is part of conservative Islam(didn't used to be).
Not even a mere part, but the battleflag....

Quote: I know I'm a tired old record,but I see no reason for us to have the global empire we seek to lead and how it will continue with allies like these 2 and most of Europe defies reason,IMO.

The way it works is that continuous US presense in too many areas leads to anti-US sentiments. Turkey is only one example. During the Cold War this was offset by the negative attitude toward the other (and more evil) superpower, but now it is a losing game.

And it is too bad that Bush chose to waste billions on Iraq rather than putting the same money into alternative energy here (I don't mean the veggie crap of course)
I wonder how long it takes the average American to figure out our empire is causing and not alleviating problems for us? The thing is,it does help alleviate some problems for others,but some day the people will figure out this scam.



I guess I never have understood exactly the popular dynamics that cause us to desire to take the role we do.
Here is an question by an American who has just visited Turkey and a response to him from a Turk (copied and pasted from Turkey Forum).

When I was living in Turkey the fundamentalist Moslems were the most pro Jewish people. If there is anti-Semitism in Turkey, it is not coming from the fundamentalist Moslems, but from people who don't know much about their religion.
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Pitbull;

I recently went to Turkey and there was something quite weird I noticed.

A lot of young girls keeping in line with islamic law, cover their heads. But along with this they also show off their cleavage, thighs and wear revealing clothes. Doesnt that defeat the very purpose of the modesty ideals in islam ?

I mean, whats the point ? Why even cover your head then if everything else isnt covered ?

Why does this happen in turkey ?
Are they trying to spite older and more religious people ?
Are they genuinely trying to observe their religion, but also trying to be modern ?
-----------------------------------
Pittbull;

Headscarf is not an exclusively Islamic tradition. If you go to Greece, then you would also see women with headscarfs. There is no Islamic law in Turkey. Perhaps you want to refer traditions of Islam, or interpretation of Islam in Turkey, which are clearly not the same notion with the Islamic Laws of some nations. Furthermore, the interpretation of Islam differs from one sect to another in Turkey. For example, older women tend to have headscarfs, but younger ones with fair education do not. In government and public buildings, no religious symbol is allowed, including the Islamic ones.

Islam only mentions "covering of body of woman", this clearly could be interpreted quite differently from one place to another. In Turkey, the urbanization of the country changed the look of the people quite a bit.
Traditionally, the Ottoman Empire was an peasant state with strong military institutions. This of course affected the Turkish lifestyle in Anatolia and Rumelia. Until 1950s, the industrialization was limited to some cities like Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara, Kayseri and Eskisehir. Today, the rural population of Turkey is in steep decline despite there is still population growth in Turkey, and the proliferation of industrialization affects the way of those (formerly rural) people's behaviour and life style as you also point out by narrating your observations, which is some normal.

Nevertheless, let us have a look how the Turkish Women was envisaged in the past:
[Image: GEJ022_L.jpg]

[Image: folkloric53.jpg]

[Image: 29-09-05_61285_1.gif]
I think I saw a Turkish figure skater on the Olympics a couple of days ago which was not particularly concerned about covering her head (and did a decent job too)
Palladin Wrote:1 more in a series of events that leads me to question WHY Americans support alliances with folks that dislike us this much? If I were a US soldier,I'd fear a Turk shooting me in the back as much as any other potential enemy we might face. Not to pick on Turks,I have said the same for most Europeans.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...world.html

This issue is that the film highlights some real truths about US action inside iraq whether it be civilian deaths or Abu Ghairb. Instead of reacting defensively, why not engage in meaningful debate and ways to have dialog to end the violence and the evil people who are behind the violence

Saying that you "fear a turk shooting you in the back" is both ignorant and callus.
Palladin Wrote:1 more in a series of events that leads me to question WHY Americans support alliances with folks that dislike us this much? If I were a US soldier,I'd fear a Turk shooting me in the back as much as any other potential enemy we might face. Not to pick on Turks,I have said the same for most Europeans.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...world.html

This issue is that the film highlights some real truths about US action inside iraq whether it be civilian deaths or Abu Ghairb. Instead of reacting defensively, why not engage in meaningful debate and ways to have dialog to end the violence and the evil people who are behind the violence

Saying that you "fear a turk shooting you in the back" is both ignorant and callus.
Otto,

It shows no such thing,it's a bunch of lies. Any prisoner in Iraq would love to ONLY be embarrassed like Abu Ghraib and we all know that was an aberration and is not a normal American event. The fact is the Sunnis of Iraq request US troops be present anytime raids are made because we're more respectful than the IA soldiers are.

I guess to you people see Jews drinking Muslim's blood is reality,we see you as we saw Hitler,inasane and dangerous.
I have not seen the movie yet, but I did not hear that the movie shows Jewish Doctor (Played by Gary Busey) drinking blood. He removes organs from killed prisoners for organ transfers.

I thought that only Christians drink Moslem and Jewish blood :lol:
Quote:I thought that only Christians drink Moslem and Jewish blood

I have no idea about Gary Busey's religion...I thought he was into drugs, not drinking, but it is not mutually exclusive....:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gary+busey+drugs

====

All right, let me hijack this a bit. Another excellent new movie, a must see in the same sense as this one, is called CSA S7
Achilles Wrote:Otto,

It shows no such thing,it's a bunch of lies. Any prisoner in Iraq would love to ONLY be embarrassed like Abu Ghraib and we all know that was an aberration and is not a normal American event. The fact is the Sunnis of Iraq request US troops be present anytime raids are made because we're more respectful than the IA soldiers are.

I guess to you people see Jews drinking Muslim's blood is reality,we see you as we saw Hitler,inasane and dangerous.

Abu Ghraib is not an isolated event, it reflects planned policy of the Bush Administration to carry out terror against people they "suspect" to be "enemies" which is a very loosely defined term these days.

I highly doubt "sunnis requested" US troops to raid and kill their own people.

As far as the "jew" issue, I find it amazing how a handful of extremist zionists will hide behind decent jews and "anti-semitism" to defect any criticism of their hateful, oppressive, tyrannical, racist policy they have laid down in occupied Palestine.
Old habits die hard