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(01-13-2019, 09:01 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: [ -> ]...The difference between the number of migrants who would climb a 15 feet wall and those who would climb a 30 feet wall is minimal. Most of them would climb none of them. Have you tried to climb a 15 feet wall? So a 30 feet wall is plain paranoid.

...Only Berlin had a concrete wall, much smaller than Trump's.

This is yet-another useless government funded project.

The Berlin wall was built of machine guns and the willingness to use them - not just concrete. Tunnels are easily found by existing technology, if properly deployed. The cost of building a wall is one of the cheapest ways to upgrade border security. Doing nothing is the most expensive.

I'm sure the wall will be designed for the location. Some places it may be twice as high as other places. Let the architects and engineers fulfill the scope, and stop nay-saying conjecture.
WmL Wrote:I'm sure the wall will be designed for the location. Some places it may be twice as high as other places. Let the architects and engineers fulfill the scope,

I hope so. Unfortunately, that's not what Trump wants.
Trump wants $5.7 billion. It's a question of money which he or his partners can allocate.
He will probably let engineers and the department work out the details freely, as long as he can get his 5%.

but if you tell Trump "we can be twice more effective with 5 times less money", he won't be happy.
(01-14-2019, 08:43 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: [ -> ]
WmL Wrote:I'm sure the wall will be designed for the location. Some places it may be twice as high as other places. Let the architects and engineers fulfill the scope,

I hope so. Unfortunately, that's not what Trump wants.
Trump wants $5.7 billion. It's a question of money which he or his partners can allocate.
He will probably let engineers and the department work out the details freely, as long as he can get his 5%.

but if you tell Trump "we can be twice more effective with 5 times less money", he won't be happy.

I believe that $5.7 billion was just for this upcoming fiscal year. Spiteful
Very briefly:

$5.7 billion is a tiny amount.

Technical points against the wall made by Fred are generally valid (except for his confusion of Hamas and Hizbollah).  However, the wall provides Trump with an attack vector for 2020, consider

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/stat...7183263749

Tagging the opponents well takes you halfway toward destroying them, and this is one thing Trump is very effective in doing, remember the 2016 elections.
mv Wrote:$5.7 billion is a tiny amount.
Sure. LOL. Obamacare too was just pocket change. S1 Yet almost caused a second civil war. Until democrats agreed to rename it Trumpacare.

JohnL Wrote:I believe that $5.7 billion was just for this upcoming fiscal year.
Glad you finaly came to realize that. S5 It's actually exactly 25% of the total amount to be spent.

Means Trump plans to spend half the sum during the last two years and the remaining 50% during his second mandate? Or 25% now and 75% in the last year of the current mandate?
Bets are open.


mv Wrote:Tagging the opponents well takes you halfway toward destroying them, and this is one thing Trump is very effective in doing
Even better: All the hackers able to hack his Twitter account are from Russia (Trump doesn't use e-mails anymore). So he's safe.

Twitter Wrote:32.4K people are talking about this
Jesus Christ! S24
People realy have nothing else to do?


mv Wrote:points against the wall made by Fred are generally valid (except for his confusion of Hamas and Hizbollah).

Sorry. No confusion here: tunnel
dug by Hezbollah into northern Israel from southern Lebanon
(01-15-2019, 04:22 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: [ -> ]
Twitter Wrote:32.4K people are talking about this
Jesus Christ! S24
People realy have nothing else to do?

Um, shouldn't that be 32.4K people plus you?

S13
Quote:Sorry. No confusion here: tunnel
dug by Hezbollah into northern Israel from southern Lebanon

Yes, confusion. The defensive walls were built on the Gaza and West Bank borders -- and they worked perfectly, cutting down the number of terrorist attacks to close to zero recently. The Lebanese border does not have any real walls.
(01-15-2019, 10:26 AM)John L Wrote: [ -> ]...I believe that $5.7 billion was just for this upcoming fiscal year.  Spiteful

Correct, but after the wall is built, the only costs will be maintenance and paying the Border Patrol. If new costs come up, it will be because technological innovation has allowed better efficiency for less costs. Suggesting that a new $5.7B will be needed on top of the nominal security cost each years sounds Keynesian to me.

Trump's building record is one of meeting budget and schedule for far less money than others have charged for similar work.

Subs like bidding for his jobs, because scope is clear and easy to follow, and they get paid on time. Any subs who think they can screw up their work and then charge for unapproved Change Orders will be on the wrong end of Construction Law decisions. The bad press is put out by these dishonorable subs.
mv Wrote:The defensive walls were built on the Gaza and West Bank borders -- and they worked perfectly
WmL Wrote:Correct
Not correct.

First you need to go to Breitbart to find the only picture of the wall around Gaza.
[Image: border-wall-west-bank-640x480.png]

Worked perfectly:
[Image: 21655001.JPG]

Just about anywhere else the border with Gaza looks like this:
(Also from Breitbart to make sure the source is accepted here. Even regarded as the source of truth. LOL)
[Image: israel-egypt-border-fence-640x480.jpg]

WmL Wrote:Trump's building record is one of meeting budget and schedule for far less money than others have charged for similar work.
Yes but that was when he worked for the private sector.

No he turned politician and plans to make much more money.
Once you are in the government the logic is the opposite.

In the private sector, you try to do things as cheap and as fast as possible while keeping up with superior quality. Because it's your money, and your salary depends on it. You car about quality because you want your client to come back and keep costs low because there is concurrence.

In the government instead, you try to do things as expensive as possible so that you can take a higher backsheesh, proportionally, but also because it's not your money. It's other's money. Trump understood that perfectly. And don't tell me they don't take a few percents for themselves. That would sound ridiculous.

You also try to drag work as long as possible so that you get a return over a longer term. The longer it lasts, the longer you can benefit. And if you manage to be over the budget it's even better.
There is no concurrence, so you do what you want.

You don't care about quality neither because if the quality is bad, it gives you an opportunity to blame the next government (currently the opposition) for lack of maintenance.

WmL Wrote:Suggesting that a new $5.7B will be needed on top of the nominal security cost each years sounds Keynesian to me.

So Trump is Keynesian. This money is on top of the existing border security budget, and it's planned to go as high as $ 23 billion, so another 3 years, with $5.7 billion each, after this.

It's just not clear whether Trump will shutdown the gov every year.

But it's very clever:
1/ Trump makes US consumers and companies pay a 25% on  imports.

2/ Chinese, because they lose too, although much less, retaliate by not buying crops from US farmers.

3/ Trump promises to help farmers

4/ Under the pretext that Democrats don't want to fund his wall he shuts down the government so that he doesn't need to pay aid to US farmers.

I must say: Brillant!  S13
(01-17-2019, 03:25 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: [ -> ]...So Trump is Keynesian. This money is on top of the existing border security budget, and it's planned to go as high as $ 23 billion, so another 3 years, with $5.7 billion each, after this.

The wall construction is a one-time thing. The original request was down from the Dem request that all the Dem leaders voted for, but never got around to use. Obama spent money all over the place, but not always on the budget line item. It takes a Keynesian to believe every year starts by repeating the year before, then adding on.
Fred,

yet again, the amount of money is trivial comparing to the US budget. It is just a matter of principle now, so I'd think the wall would get built -- unless Trump gets impeached. Whether it will do anything good, is irrelevant.

And Trump is dead serious about making the best effort on the wall, after all he did twit many times that the only way to compete with China is to have a bigger and uglier wall.

The true potential of the wall will not be realized until the phase II of his master-plan: a Trump-tower every 200 yards. S6
The caravans are organized and supervised by American leftists, the CIA should take them out.
From the recent Trump speech:

Quote:Finally, as part of an overall approach to border security, law enforcement professionals have requested $5.7 billion for a physical barrier. At the request of Democrats, it will be a steel barrier rather than a concrete wall. This barrier is absolutely critical to border security. It’s also what our professionals at the border want and need. This is just common sense.

It is no longer "Trump's wall", it is law enforcement professionals' and the Democrats' "wall".

However, Trump's mistake is using the words "Democrats" and "common sense" in the same paragraph.
Quote:The caravans are organized and supervised by American leftists, the CIA should take them out.

Trying to get Trump impeached? I understand S6

We now know who blew the cover on Iran-Contra affair. Unlike the 1980s, CIA (and ALL security services) are filled with people who would jump on the opportunity to tell the story, even before any action is taken.

Even going the French way -- which in the situation will mean using Mexican drug cartels rather than Arab militas -- will get into the open quickly. Only one weak link needed.
(01-19-2019, 10:57 AM)mv Wrote: [ -> ]Fred,
The true potential of the wall will not be realized until the phase II of his master-plan:  a Trump-tower every 200 yards. S6

If he does get his way, any tower along the Mexican border could very well be called that.  S22

(01-19-2019, 11:04 AM)Canuknucklehead Wrote: [ -> ]The caravans are organized and supervised by American leftists, the CIA should take them out.

You mean Liquidate them?   Shock

(01-19-2019, 11:46 AM)JohnWho Wrote: [ -> ]From the recent Trump speech:

Quote:Finally, as part of an overall approach to border security, law enforcement professionals have requested $5.7 billion for a physical barrier. At the request of Democrats, it will be a steel barrier rather than a concrete wall. This barrier is absolutely critical to border security. It’s also what our professionals at the border want and need. This is just common sense.

It is no longer "Trump's wall", it is law enforcement professionals' and the Democrats' "wall".  

However, Trump's mistake is using the words "Democrats" and "common sense" in the same paragraph.

Man, Ain't that the Truth.  Unlike the use of numbers, two 'negatives' do not lead to a 'positive'.  S13
Pelosi is an evil, miserable old bitch, she won't compromise, it is only a matter of time before right-of-center Democrats revolt.
Quote: it is only a matter of time before right-of-center Democrats revolt.

hmm... if I may, a personal question: are you concerned that the dinosaurs may revolt and kill all mammals ?
(01-20-2019, 12:58 PM)mv Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote: it is only a matter of time before right-of-center Democrats revolt.

hmm... if I may, a personal question: are you concerned that the dinosaurs may revolt and kill all mammals ?

S13
(01-20-2019, 12:58 PM)mv Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote: it is only a matter of time before right-of-center Democrats revolt.

hmm... if I may, a personal question: are you concerned that the dinosaurs may revolt and kill all mammals ?

Y'know, that is actually a good stimulating starting point. The allusion of dinosaurs to right-of-center Democrats is clever - but are they completely extinct? Many old-time JFK Democrats have repeated Reagan's famous line, that "I never left the Democrat Party, they left me." It must be exhausting for so many dyed-in-the-wool Democrats to accept rationalizations for many of the new Leftist excesses. What happened in the Kavanaugh hearings, and in all the Media embarrassing retractions, as well as this government close-down based on a wall that all these leaders voted for before, must make those who grew up with the Dem imprimatur see differences in what they think THEY are, with what their leaders say. How many people are psychological able to go with the flow, when they aren't really on board with it? Is the percentage of pragmatists who will accept outright lies in exchange for seamy politics that great?
Quote:but are they completely extinct?

As party operatives -- pretty much so.
As voters -- surely exist, perhaps 30% of the population vote one party because it is the family tradition to vote that party! One can find a plenty of conservative democrats among these ... but they would not revolt or alter their behavior.

Here is a more interesting question:

Do conservative republicans exist?

(among party operatives -- among the voters trivially yes).

I am not so sure ...
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