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(04-13-2017, 12:12 PM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ]...we can never again burn down cities like Dresden or Tokyo. Do that today and you'd end up at the bottom of a rope, even the US POTUS eventually would.

But we don't target civilians anymore. Did you miss John's statement that smart bombs and precision-guided weapons no longer require huge collateral damage? It is the other side that targets innocents. The public support is huge on our side in such battles. Unless you want such atrocities, why do you dream of them?
William,

Let's try this again. You concluded above we can force peace treaties today like we did in 1945. I replied, NO, we cannot because we cannot kill massive numbers of civilians anymore. That's why we could do it in 1945.

We probably killed double digit millions of civilians in WWII, so it's good only our enemies target civilians.(sarcasm alert).


We cannot burn down Tokyo and Dresden now because we've spent 3/4 of a century accusing people that do that of being outside human normality.
Not being able to kill millions of civilians means we can no longer impose our will on foreign societies and our history documents this trend.

As far as wanting atrocities, I oppose all US foreign policy. Including our murder.
(04-13-2017, 03:54 PM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ]William,As far as wanting atrocities,  I oppose all US foreign policy. Including our murder.

Are you saying that you are totally unable to find even one thing to agree with concerning our foreign policy?  Are you still charging blindly into the "Its either all one, or all the other" way of thinking?  That's certainly not logical.  



(04-13-2017, 03:54 PM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ]William,

Let's try this again. You concluded above we can force peace treaties today like we did in 1945. I replied, NO, we cannot because we cannot kill massive numbers of civilians anymore. That's why we could do it in 1945.

We probably killed double digit millions of civilians in WWII, so it's good only our enemies target civilians.(sarcasm alert).

We cannot burn down Tokyo and Dresden now because we've spent 3/4 of a century accusing people that do that of being outside human normality.  
Not being able to kill millions of civilians means we can no longer impose our will on foreign societies and our history documents this trend.

As far as wanting atrocities,  I oppose all US foreign policy. Including our murder.

Stop and read before you answer the same way once again. I said pretty clearly that "...we don't target civilians anymore. Did you miss John's statement that smart bombs and precision-guided weapons no longer require huge collateral damage? It is the other side that targets innocents. The public support is huge on our side in such battles. Unless you want such atrocities, why do you dream of them?"

You totally ignored this and posted your same errors. You equate the 1940's with today. That is impossible because we no longer fight wars the same way. That ended forever when Walter Cronkite lied about the Tet Offensive, when we won completely, and General Giap was going to surrender the next day and end the war. Giap wrote in his own autobiography that he and his army was defeated. No more soldiers, no more ammunition, no more hope. Then Cronkite lied and said Giap's forces had succeeded and overran US Embassies (which they never did.). At that moment, Warfare via journalism was canonized. It no longer mattered who won on the battlefield - it only mattered who won in the Press. Giap held back his surrender and never again looked to win battles - only photo ops. Over 45,000 Us soldiers died because of Cronkite.

We now use surgical strikes to knock out the enemy. Knowing the Media is on the other side, we never allow collateral damage. If the enemy causes it, then it happens - but that is NOT on our hands. Not anymore.
(04-13-2017, 05:38 PM)WmLambert Wrote: [ -> ]We now use surgical strikes to knock out the enemy. Knowing the Media is on the other side, we never allow collateral damage. If the enemy causes it, then it happens - but that is NOT on our hands. Not anymore.

Well, we try not to. However, sometimes things go astray, or a computer chip malfunctions. But that is rare, with human error being the main exception. Patrick does not see all that because it doesn't fit his narrative, that Everything here is wrong and needs to be scrapped. He wants perfection to rule supreme, but refuses to acknowledge that perfection can never be achieved.

Murphy's Law, don't you know. S5
If the maniac running North Korea nukes Seoul, or the nearby American military base, it is quite reasonable to expect that President Trump would indeed nuke Pyongyang. Many of the military leaders in North Korea likely realize this, and the question is whether they would stop Kim Jong-un in time. They have to know it is not in their power to harm America significantly, but the USA can very easily harm North Korea greatly. Just a few nukes would destroy the entire country--and the USA does have the means to deliver the weapons. Does a country that produces a sociopath/psychopath leader like Kim Jong-un and participates in a personality cult that exalts him as a virtual god, really deserve to live? It would be a shame to see 25 million North Koreans killed. But responsibility for preventing that rests in the hands of the North Korean military leaders.

After Trump nukes Pyongyang, he could then issue an ultimatum to the entire world, that strongman dictators like Kim Jong-un who try to intimidate the world with their ruthless barbarism, will no longer be tolerated anywhere on earth. Governments must truly serve their people, not exploit them or tyrannize them. Otherwise the governments will cease to exist. If characters like Putin try to come back with claims that the USA under Trump is just as bad, then let them see that their bluff is called, and Putin will die if he does not decide to join on the side of civilization. If something like this does happen, then no matter what screeching noises leftists might make, ultimately history will honor Trump as one of the heroes of the ages.
William,

If I come into your neighborhood with an artillery piece and unload on your house because you and I got into a fight, I am going to kill the people in that house. Even those I wasn't mad at. Me saying I didn't mean to kill anyone but you is sorta disingenuous.
Yes, we target civilians because we know the way we make war miles up in the sky makes it inevitable so we can avoid injuries. We should not make war when we don't have to because we are forced into this trade off. We make war when it is not in self defense and that's murder from my perspective.

If it makes you feel better because a pilot is not purposefully trying to blast a hospital even though he does blast one inevitably, well, there's that for your conscience. I put myself in the shoes of the regular folks on the ground and it makes no difference to them.


John,

I can ID things I've agreed with, such as opposing the USSR's expansion. I should have been more specific.


I can't be part of "getting our way" by harming others and that's what foreign affairs are about generally. Only in rare cases where Stalin or this Kim nut are an opponent can I agree with that scenario. Mainly, our opponents are simply people who are not a threat to us, they just won't get on their knees for us.

Syria is a perfect example, so was Iraq, so is Iran, so is Russia, so is China. They may be threats, but, not to the USA here. Maybe to our hegemony in other areas, but, no threat to us.

If you're willing at this point in your life to kill an Iranian kid because he thinks Iran has more right to have a say over there than the USA does, then I am disappointed in you personally. That kid has more right to kill than you would in that scenario and we would have more right to have a say in the Caribbean. Forget ideology here, that's his home and this is your's.

BTW, even with Stalin and Kim( or 1941 Japan), we have them as foes because we want to mind business of regions thousands of miles from home, Brazilians and Argentinians have better things to accomplish than that and I think we do as well.
Palladin, have you considered the moral responsibility you have for all the innocent people who will be killed if your hindrance causes bad guys to go free to kill more people?
(04-14-2017, 08:25 AM)Ron Lambert Wrote: [ -> ]Palladin, have you considered the moral responsibility you have for all the innocent people who will be killed if your hindrance causes bad guys to go free to kill more people?

This is the problem I have with the positions of both of you.  Ron, you are one who believes it is our responsibility to be policeman to the world, and hang the costs.  Patrick is one who believes it is our responsibility to stay out of everyone's business, regardless.  

I'm saying that we need to choose our paths very carefully, because actions do have consequences.  And too, we are not swimming with enough funds to do everything we would like.   We have to learn to think beyond our Johnson, or we will eventually not be able to help anyone when we really do need to act. Gah
Ron,

I consider God has not assigned me or the USA or NATO( or Russia or China or Brazil) to be His avenging killer angel regardless of what is happening on earth outside my home.

 Probably for the same reason Jesus & Paul argued with Pharisees who claimed everyone should do all the Torah and then they failed to do all the Torah. It's called being a hypocrite. If we use chemical weapons, we don't have standing to insist others don't.

It would be like if I'm a child molestor, would you agree I can blow up your family because you're a wife beater and maybe you aren't even a wife beater, it might be I just made that up? That's the moral dilemma that is reality and you see us as sitting in God's throne making these moral/life and death decisions.

 Have you considered the innocent people killed after the US uses force like in Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen? Probably more dead & persecuted innocents in each state than if the US assisted revolts had never occurred. Including the church in Serbia, Iraq and Syria.



Did you ever check out Daniel 4 or Romans 13? Take 10 and do so.

John,

I would not oppose violent responses to states that are a threat to the USA. I consider NK in that paradigm. My only fear is we do not have the ability to take down Kim w/o his being able to kill a million South Koreans and Japanese. So, I would not dare make war on them in that situation.

I also oppose the reason we fear NK and Mexicans don't, i.e. we try and manage global affairs.
(04-14-2017, 11:50 AM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ]John,

I would not oppose violent responses to states that are a threat to the USA. I consider NK in that paradigm. My only fear is we do not have the ability to take down Kim w/o his being able to kill a million South Koreans and Japanese. So, I would not dare make war on them in that situation.

I also oppose the reason we fear NK and Mexicans don't, i.e. we try and manage global affairs.

BUT......is there Anything Good that your government has Ever, Ever, done that you can give them credit?

You do nothing but continually excoriate EVERYTHING about our country, as if it is the single worst entity that every existed. You never have anything good to say about it.

Now, if you keep that up, do you ever expect anyone to believe anything you say about anything? To listen to you going on, one would think the US to be one Huge Sodom or Gomorrah, or both rolled into one. This does not help your credibility. Don't you understand this.........just a little bit? Gah
In my lifetime?

Sure, the state has arrested several criminals and placed them in prisons, except as you noted wealthy criminals. They do a good job in my state of keeping our roads in proper working order.

The feds allow free speech and except in rare cases where you are a threat to them, you don't get the IRS type treatment. I can still attend church w/o being arrested.

On foreign policy, I credit Uncle Sam with opposing the expansion of the USSR. Since 1990 I agree with nothing the US has done over seas. Not now although I originally agreed with desert storm.

It may seem to you like all I do is excoriate our country, but, if I am falsely making a case I don't want to do that and welcome pushback on specifics. Just don't stick with "all you do is run us down", challenge me when I make accusations.

We're such a power house internationally we do more than all others, for better and for worse AND I seriously hate "American exceptionalism" and so I am going to point out when we do something that is open to question just because I think that idea is so dangerous. It's how Germans thought in 1930 and they were as wrong as we are in that respect.
(04-14-2017, 05:43 PM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ]It may seem to you like all I do is excoriate our country, but, if I am falsely making a case I don't want to do that and welcome pushback on specifics. Just don't stick with "all you do is run us down", challenge me when I make accusations.

Patrick, there is no "May" about it.  You come off as the toughest and loudest Southern Baptist "Hell, Fire & Brimstone" preacher in the South.  In fact, you remind me of that all-time classic novel about WWIII, "Alas Babylon".  The kids would sneak off and hide in the church loft, just to watch that Black preacher raise holy hell on Sunday morning.   Did you ever read that novel?  Its one of the very best disaster novels ever written, and yes, it even has a happy ending.  Read it sometime.

(04-14-2017, 05:43 PM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ] We're such a power house internationally we do more than all others, for better and for worse AND I seriously hate "American exceptionalism" and so I am going to point out when we do something that is open to question just because I think that idea is so dangerous. It's how Germans thought in 1930 and they were as wrong as we are in that respect.

That's because you never understood exactly what the phrase really means.  You think it pertains to people, when it really means the system of Liberties we were granted through our Constitution.  And no other country in the world has them.  That's what makes things exceptional.  It allows its citizens the opportunity to do exceptional things, that would be much harder in other countries.  And all this time you never understood that, did you?  This is something that should be pounded into those little brains filled with mush, before they grow up without the faintest idea as to why the country itself has gotten where it is in less than two hundred years.   Gah
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...boats.html

China continues poaching in South Korean waters.

However it is not so easy as South Korea is not willing to allow this.

It's difficult to believe, but China is really a greedy country. It is a large territory and they are not ashamed to enter South korean waters for illegal fishing.

For full text, click on the link above.

Quote:South Korea fired 249 'warning shots' at 44 Chinese boats that 'swarmed around' one of its patrol ships in escalation of tensions in the region
South Korean coast guard vessels regularly chase off Chinese boats in its waters
In latest incident, Chinese boats were fortified with iron bars and steel mesh
Boats began to push the South Korean patrol boat which responded with shots
-----
South Korea's coast guard said it fired 249 warning shots over a group of Chinese fishing boats 'swarming around' one of its patrol ships in South Korean waters.
South Korean coast guard vessels regularly chase Chinese boats suspected of fishing illegally in South Korean waters, at times sparking violent confrontations.
A fleet of 44 Chinese fishing boats fortified with iron bars and steel mesh on Tuesday began to rush the patrol boat which broadcast warnings to steer clear, the coast guard said.

About another incident:
Quote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-boat.html

Keep calm and sail on: Beijing tells Seoul to stay 'cool-headed' after Chinese fishermen sank a 4.5-tonne South Korean coastguard vessel

It's claimed that Chinese boats rammed and sunk a coast guard vessel
South Korean coast guards were trying to stop suspected illegal fishing
China's foreign ministry told Seoul to keep calm and rational on October 11

-----

The sinking occurred on October 7 when the South Korean coastguards were trying to stop 40 Chinese fishing boats from suspected illegal fishing on the Yellow Sea.

I think, South Korean patience will end soon ..
(12-20-2017, 02:11 PM)yohan Wrote: [ -> ]I think, South Korean patience will end soon ..

I think PRC is using the old "Frog on the wall" tactic of two steps forward, one step back routine. They will keep moving forward until they are confronted. Then they will back off, but never back to where they began. This way they know just how far the opponent is willing to go without the use of force.

I believe this is the area where the next world war will begin, and I'm very concerned about it. But I suspect they will not attempt this under Trump. Trump will not tolerate it. They'll wait for the next Jackass to enter the WH. I suspect they will try to keep him from getting reelected in 2020.

I believe the Middle East will have a regional war soon, but that will be easier to contain.
https://www.ai-jane.org/thread-12804-page-10.html

As you can see from my comment in another thread, we are also worried in Japan.

Japan will spend more for defense in future and will look more after these remote islands near China/Taiwan than it did before.
These islands (Ishigaki, Yonaguni and others in this group not claimed by China/Taiwan) - are clearly recognized as Japanese territory.

There are additional ships under construction for coastguard and military (made in Japan), airforce will be updated with new airplanes (made in USA), and what is really good with these Japanese people living on these islands like Yonaguni, Ishigaki and some others nearby, about 50.000 people - they openly welcome military protection - however understandable - they insist that only Japanese military and not US-servicemen - are using their islands.

Most Japanese islanders around Ishigaki region feel strongly disturbed about Chinese fishing boats and Chinese coastguard and even Chinese warships passing by all the time.

These islands will host permanently more than 700 Japanese soldiers in near future and various radar and missile systems will be deployed.

There is even some talk going on now to consider to use the unhabited Senkaku Islands again for military use, despite they are claimed by China and Taiwan.

That's all what can be done for now, be prepared and if necessary to fight it out.
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