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Thankfully the Media is again covering a major event in archaeological history: Evidence Suggests Noah's Ark Flood Existed, Says Robert Ballard, Archaeologist Who Found Titanic. But I have two minor problems with this. First of all, science always seems to get mixed in with fundamentalism, without fail. They always try to throw in some huge ark, which is just not practical. And secondly, which is more important to me, Bob Ballard always seems to get all the credit for it, when there are others, who deserve the lion's share.

My main point here is that this entire story began in the 1970s with two geologists, Walter Pitman and William Ryan, who actually did the hard work in making all this come to fruition. They rarely get the credit, because Ballard is a 'larger than life' type, having found the Titanic, Bismark, and other underwater discoveries. Ryan and Pitman's story is told here in a PBS article which is almost a decade old: The Truth Behind Noah's Flood. And it lays a nice general outline. And if anyone is interested in the nuts and bolts of how these two geologists went about working with their theory, they book Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About The Event That Changed History, is a very interesting read. Its really in two parts, with the first part about the flood itself. The second part is all about the consequences of forced mass migration, and how the flood caused a Huge impact on the psychic of man, which has made its way into countless fables in countless societies.

And if anyone is really interested in watching a video on it, here is a program about it all.

Noah's Flood: Myth or Reality? This is a great program, and explains their work very well.

The sound quality is not good. Headphones are best.

Noah's Flood: Myth or Reality? P1

Noah's Flood: Myth or Reality? P2

Noah's Flood: Myth or Reality? P3
Here's a neat point. I've done some ANE history courses lately and the 1 society in that area we know of that did not have a flood epic is Egypt. They had everyone dying, but, not from a flood.

That seems weird doesn't it? Since the Med started this thing?
(12-12-2012, 05:24 PM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a neat point. I've done some ANE history courses lately and the 1 society in that area we know of that did not have a flood epic is Egypt. They had everyone dying, but, not from a flood.

That seems weird doesn't it? Since the Med started this thing?

First, what does "ANE" mean? Pardon my ignorance, but a search doesn't really answer it for me.

As for Egypt, the diasphora Ryan and Pitman talk about would not include the them. Egyptians are almost certainly the result of the Sahara's constriction from the drying out, beginning around 6,000-4,000BC. Its natural these people would follow the water, which almost always ended at the Nile.

This diasphora would be the massive Indo-European migration that was known for decades, but not the reason why. When you enter the flooding of the Black Sea into the equation, suddenly it all makes sense, crystal clear sense.

That's why the root language of all this area, with the exception of the Semitic people, is basically Indo-European, all the way to India. And it would take a major catastrophe of this magnitude to bring it about. And believe me, this was Major, in capital letters.

Oh, and I highly recommend that Ryan and Pitman book to everyone interested in ancient history. But watching all of the video parts, with headphones, will cover most of it pretty well, but still without all the details.

This is why these two people are geology heroes to me, along with Eugene Shoemaker.
Egyptians did have flood stories, at least two types. One seems different from canonical,
Quote:The Egyptian flood myth begins with the sun god Ra, who feared that people were going to overthrow him. He sent the goddess Hathor, who was his eye, to punish the people. But she killed so many that their blood, flowing into the Nile River and the ocean, caused a flood. Hathor greedily drank the bloody water. Feeling that things had gone too far, Ra ordered slaves to make a lake of beer, dyed red to look like blood. Hathor drank the beer, became very drunk, and failed to finish the task of wiping out humanity. The survivors of her bloodbath started the human race anew.

Read more:

the other quite possibly is the canonical story, but we have only a piece of it.

ANE = ancient near east.

Let me make sure I got what you said. Egyptians would have missed a flood like this because they came from a more southerly region than current Egypt?

BTW, something common in that ANE culture was "chaotic waters". It = evil, chaos, etc. Leviathan, the evil sea monster, etc.


Maybe that one doesn't meet the criteria of the profession cause my professor told me Egypt alone of that region didn't have a flood epic. I bet he assumed my question was based on a water deluge epic.
(12-12-2012, 06:49 PM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ]John,

ANE = ancient near east.

That's new to me: never heard of it before.

Quote:Let me make sure I got what you said. Egyptians would have missed a flood like this because they came from a more southerly region than current Egypt?

Actually, the Northern Saharan people would have come laterally out of the desert, most likely from as far as Libya. As the landscape dried out, the people would naturally gravitate to what water remained. And that would be the Nile.

The Black Sea is much farther north. Peoples pushed out of the fertile Black Sea basin would also push outward. Getting to Egypt would have been far more problematic.

And too, their root language has no relationship to Indo-European dialects. Language roots and pottery style are two of the most important elements in archaeology. One can tell a great deal about a culture by studying its root language, and their trading influences by comparing pottery types. The later involves trade.

Thanks for this.

BTW, on ANE, it's a common term in biblical studies. I never heard of it myself before I took some OT theology courses.
Palladin, in the OTTC, did they refer to "Biblical Studies" as BS too?
(12-14-2012, 05:46 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: [ -> ]Palladin, in the OTTC, did they refer to "Biblical Studies" as BS too?


Another Buggerin' acronym. Shock
Some of those scholars must work for the government, hence all the acronyms.
OTTC is probably an abbreviation used in the school's course guide, for "Old Testament Theology Course."

No, the guy I took my classes from is a believer who thinks the entire narrative is valid.
I just want to state that the program I posted above, in its five parts, about Ryan and Pitman's discovery, was watched by me some years ago, probably around the time this forum was set up. It played a major part in my further research into the biblical flood hypothesis taken from a geologic perspective.

And in fact, I again watched some of the first two parts the other day, when I posted them. But I never did go back over all five in a row.....because I had already watched them before. But this afternoon I watched the entire program once again, from start to finish. And to tell you the truth, there were some important items I had overlooked, and had also breezed through in their book, "Noah's Flood:.."

Here's what I mean. At the tail end of part two, Ryan talks about the tale of Gilgamesh. And in it he recounts the direction the hero took in his travels. While traveling westward, he came upon a ferryman, who showed him how he traveled, via the use of rocks and rope, something that most scholars had related to some sort of magic. Dr. Stephanie M. Dalley's, professor of Akkadian literature is a great example there as to just how much they never take earth sciences(such as oceanic currents) into account. But the truth is usually less complex than assumed, and almost certainly involved the simple step of dropping a basket full of rocks into the water, and allowing the subsurface current move them along to where they wanted to go. Its interesting how old tales can contain clues that are totally foreign to scholars, but easily understood when other fields of study go back and study it from a different perspective.

Another thing that again impressed upon me, was the hidebound refusal to accept the expertise from professionals outside a given field of study. For instance when Ryan & Pitman's research was presented to the archaeological field, they tended to scoff at it, out of hand. After all, they are merely a bunch of outsiders, who just happen to be geologists. What do they know? And who gave them permission to breech a topic that is clearly the realm of the archaeologist?

It reminds me of the statement that "No good deed ever goes unpunished". So here we are with the best explanation of what caused the almost universal flooding tale, and it is almost immediately treated as heresy. And slowly but surely the science is showing the evidence to be exactly as they put forward. But unfortunately Ballard is going to get almost all of the credit for it, because he's a big time star with the media.

If you haven't taken the time and watched this program, you really owe it to yourself to do so. Its very enlightening, especially if you use headphones and get good sound pickup.
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It's funny how we all arrive at our views.

It makes imminent good logic to me that there was a huge, catastrophic flood in the ANE simply because everyone was discussing it except the Egyptians.

If it was total fantasy, they'd have developed various mythical ideas, IMO.

Fireball from heaven, big monster ate up everyone, volcano did it, etc. Also, why would all the cultures(including Egyptians) decide everyone or almost everyone perished at some point in human history?

To me, it makes better logic to surmise something happened even if you're not a believer.
Yeah, all of the persistent myths had to come from somewhere, and have substance to it. That's why I firmly believe the bible is based on actual events. The only thing is that they were witnessed through the lense of other humans, and over time. But its just that we have to realize that things get lost in the constant translation of the actual events.

If you go by the radiocarbon dating, this flood occurred around 5600BC. Stylized writing really didn't reach the point where glyphs represented actual words until around 3200BC at the earliest. That's about 2400 years after the fact. Can you imagine the times it would have to be told, by story tellers, over that time? And can you imagine the details that were lost, or changed, over that time?

And clearly the Gilgamesh tale came before the biblical one, because the details are more precise. In fact, while the Gilgamesh one did have a moral tale, it was still more in the form of historical in nature. But when it was adapted to the bible, it became the ultimate moral allegory. But that still doesn't take away from the fact that a huge flood really did occur, and where it occurred, it was as if the entire world really did flood.

Its a totally fascinating tale that is a tribute modern man's ability to pass down our heritage over great lengths of time. None of this in any way detracts from the importance of the story, or how it was conveyed.
To bad they had no camcoders or cellphone to film it by 5600 BC....
If they had, the format would be digitally unreadable to us after so long a time and after so much progression in languages.
Yeah, it would be hard to find the right codecs... LOL.
Fortunately we have science getting better all the time. Once we develop some solid underwater archaeology, we will begin to learn a tremendous amount about how the inhabitants lived back then.

And if we really luck up in the future, we may be able to invent some form of time travel. Can you just imagine the spectacular sight of such a tremendous waterfall, cascading down into the Black Sea basin? It would be one of the world's most spectacular waterfalls, perhaps second only to the one caused by the sudden flooding of the Mediterranean basin, about 5.3 million years ago.
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