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Do we have a trend here?

Russia: Putin behaves like a classical nationalist.
Turkey: Erdogan behaves like a classical nationalist and wins the latest elections.
Hungary: Nationalists Win, Ultra-nationalists double their vote.
Japan: Trending to nationalism.
India: Ultra-nationalist is about to be elected as the next PM.
France: Le Pen
UK: Farage is not a nationalist, just a parody, but he is about to win...
Germany is watching over their national interests....

I would not go into Ukraine et al....

Are we returning back to normalcy? Are we looking toward a better tomorrow?

Do not forget nationalist movements in Spain where Catalonia wants to break away, as well as the South Tyrol, where ethnically and linguistically they are Teutonic as opposed to the rest of Italy.

JohnL has been talking about smallest common denominators for years now on here, and so this doesn't surprise me. Has it always been this way, or is it being forced into more existence? By this I mean has an Western world with culture and gov't policies that both increasingly erode away national identities finally pushed people into their default state: tribalism?

The years of progressive thought, denigration of local cultures, and importation of non-natives into areas to supplant local ones have finally born tasty fruit.

Ultimately, I see it as an increasingly obvious struggle by people against increasingly authoritarian entities who wish to do their best to destroy nationalistic sentiments as a way of maintaining power.
(04-11-2014, 01:00 AM)Gunnen4u Wrote: [ -> ]Do not forget nationalist movements in Spain where Catalonia wants to break away, as well as the South Tyrol, where ethnically and linguistically they are Teutonic as opposed to the rest of Italy.

JohnL has been talking about smallest common denominators for years now on here, and so this doesn't surprise me. Has it always been this way, or is it being forced into more existence? By this I mean has an Western world with culture and gov't policies that both increasingly erode away national identities finally pushed people into their default state: tribalism?

The years of progressive thought, denigration of local cultures, and importation of non-natives into areas to supplant local ones have finally born tasty fruit.

Ultimately, I see it as an increasingly obvious struggle by people against increasingly authoritarian entities who wish to do their best to destroy nationalistic sentiments as a way of maintaining power.

G4U, I think it can all be simplified as "Birds of a feather Flock Together". Here in Europe we have no Europeans. We have Greeks, Italians Germans, French, Austrians*, Scandinavians(Denmark, Finland, Swede, Norway all individual) there is no unifying element. The United States is a melting. What has happened in the United States has not happened to that extent anywhere else. Canada is close both in proximity but is just about insignificant.
Melting pot? More a patchwork of groups for the moment. Yea, yea, they tell you it is a melting pot, but only some groups *melt* together, while overall, there are divisions between groups. This is why there are different ethnicities in different neighborhoods.......I always thought melting pot was some insidious intentional misnomer.

My feelings on the US were that it would eventually balkanize somehow. That may be decades from now, but the prospect is exciting none the less.
I grew up in an Italian neighborhood in Montreal during the 1950's. Approximately 75% of the children of the first generation (born in the 40's & 50"s) married Italian, but only about half their children were unable to speak Italian fluently; most of the following generation (born in the 60's & 70's) married non-Italians, very few of their children had Italian names; the generation that followed (born in the 80's & 90's) consider themselves Canadian. The melting pot will progress even faster today because it isn't unusual for the present generation to move greater distances for employment opportunities.
Melting pot: works with some immigration (Europeans of all kinds do mix), does not work with others even in traditional "melting pot" countries like US or Canada.

Quote:Do not forget nationalist movements in Spain where Catalonia wants to break away, as well as the South Tyrol, where ethnically and linguistically they are Teutonic as opposed to the rest of Italy.

JohnL has been talking about smallest common denominators for years now on here,

The funny thing is that nationalism can lead to both effects, but John is a divider, while I'm a uniter. S6

Consider Tyrol: right now it is about breaking away, but twenty years from now it may be about reassembling Germans.... Anschlu├č #2 is a distinct possibility when the EU breaks apart.

Overall, it may be that once multiculturism fails, we should see regional nationalist powers ruling most of the globe.... Germany in Europe, Russia to the East, China and India the other two larger Eurasian powers, with Japan, Iran and Turkey being the smaller ones. Some yet smaller powers are possible, including Poland, Hungary, Israel and perhaps Egypt. Some of these countries are bound to switch into the "uniting" mode, leading to both local and colonial conflicts.
(04-11-2014, 01:00 AM)Gunnen4u Wrote: [ -> ]JohnL has been talking about smallest common denominators for years now on here, and so this doesn't surprise me. Has it always been this way, or is it being forced into more existence? By this I mean has an Western world with culture and gov't policies that both increasingly erode away national identities finally pushed people into their default state: tribalism?110.89.9.202

Tait, you left out the most important word I have used for years. And that word in Functional. In other words, Lowest Common Functional Denominator. If it is dysfunctional, it will not work in the long run.

And yes, tribalism is what is behind all this. Nationalism is piggybacking on top of it. And in the majority of cases they are one and the same.

And Michael is wrong in his portrayal of Farage. Its just the opposite: Farage is indeed a nationalist, not a tribalist. His position is pro-UK, not pro-Angle, not pro-Saxon, not Gaelic, not Welsh, not Normandy, etc., etc. UK is trying to do what the US has been doing for over two hundred years; assimilate different groups into one homogeneous country.

The only exception to all this has been the work of the Jackasses, and unopposed by the Dumbasses, which is what is hurting us right now.
(04-11-2014, 08:12 AM)mv Wrote: [ -> ]The funny thing is that nationalism can lead to both effects, but John is a divider, while I'm a uniter. S6

Oh, for crying out............... The problem is that you are looking at things through the lense of 25/100, 15/20, 8/20. I look at this as 1/4, 3/4, 2/5. In other words "Lowest Common Functional Denominator". You need to simplify your mind, to see what I am talking about. S13S6
Hey, look at this from a biblical point, which Ron can understand better than many of us. This is the perfect example of the bible's use of "The Tower of Babel". It is possible to bring together many tribes, but keeping them together can not be done as long at those tribes maintain their identity.

This is Common Sense 101. Just look at Italy. Do you think Italy will be able to keep many of its different ethnic tribes from breaking apart, as Italy was until just a little over one hundred years?
There are almost no ethnic tribes in Italy (Tyrol is small), in fact there are not many ethnic tribes in Western Europe.... largely this part of the world became one nation/one state. Separatist movements in Western Europe are simply signs of degeneracy.... Is there a person in Tyrol who is willing to die for its independence? Doubt this. Ditto for Catalan, for Scotland, for Venice.
Now, Syria, Ukraine, ..... are all different.

When the Sodomite Force is eliminated, I would expect a parade of independence everywhere.... but not in Western Europe, more likely outcome there would be that the separatism fades away. They got loads of goatsexuals to whack first.... S13
(04-11-2014, 11:19 AM)mv Wrote: [ -> ]They got loads of goatsexuals to whack first.... S13

Baaa! Watch out they are not the only ones!

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Some people regard European sentiments as tribalism as much as nationalism. It has also been said that World Wars I & II were European tribal wars.
(04-11-2014, 11:58 AM)Ron Lambert Wrote: [ -> ]Some people regard European sentiments as tribalism as much as nationalism. It has also been said that World Wars I & II were European tribal wars.

You are making me want to reread the shelf of Thomas Carlyle works for the background on this one...(on one of my offline disks I have his stuff converted to text-to-speech)
When I was in The Netherlands chaperoning multiple US soccer teams, tribalism was rampant. The Dutch have so many separate languages and cultural enclaves that it was hard to comprehend. What I found enlightening is, that even though whole sections of the same country didn't speak the same language, there were far more similarities than existed. What strikes a Westerner walking through Amsterdam, Eindhoven, and other cities are little things that are jarring to us, but normal there.

One example: No window shades or curtains. The inside of a Dutch home is wide open to the street. Another one: no OSHA. To keep kids off newly seeded soccer fields, they run a string of barbed-wire neck high from one goal to the other.

What they eat, how they congregate, everything looks strange to us - but is commonplace to them.

The tribalism is wide-scale when involving language, but intensely local, too. Ever city has one gathering place: the clubhouse. No need for restaurants - everyone goes to the same place. In the big cities, the club houses are huge and imperious, but every little town has one place that everyone considers their own.

The secret of the melting part is the urge to join. It is only when huge immigrant populations bring their traditions with them, that the melting pot merging slows. But give them time. The things that keep them apart wither away, and the little things tend to unite them. Cultures also subscribe to the Darwin Awards.
(04-11-2014, 08:12 AM)mv Wrote: [ -> ]Melting pot: works with some immigration (Europeans of all kinds do mix), does not work with others even in traditional "melting pot" countries like US or Canada.

Pretty much sums it up. I have always considered that "melting pot" bullshit as something preached to the masses to help break down identities, especially ethnic ones. Cannot establish hegemony over people who believe that they as individuals are having what makes them *them* trod upon or eroded away.

And as for people willing to fight -- all these referendums and other bullshit mean nothing -- why would the system allow a region to break away by using that same system? This is against the system's self-interest and really, if you can't back it up with gunfire and bloodshed, may as well not say shit at all. *Law-abiding* white people usually think they can do it with a ballot or something.
Quote: why would the system allow a region to break away by using that same system? This is against the system's self-interest

system that allows a region to break away usually means that the system is in deep crisis and is unable to fight.... USSR disintegration is one example, breakdown of the Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans post-WWI is another. European regimes are mostly in a crisis state today too, this is why we see the independence movements. A minimally healthy system can usually preserve itself for a long time, even if it is based on a minority population, and would fail only due to a powerful external force: consider Iraq, Syria, or South Africa....
Nationalism and far-rightism in Europe is at the same time a mental degenerescence of the locals and the external sign of the weakness of the EU.

There are two types of nationalist movements: The national-nationalist (like Le Pen in France) who want to preserve the grandeur of the existing country and the separatists who want to create their village-state.
The first because they feel poorer, the second because they feel richer.

All depends how the EU will manage to float the boat.

One thing with the EU is that while we don;t speak the same language, while we display slight esthetic differences, we realise that our lives are pretty much the same wether we live in Portugal or in Finland. Most of us work 35~40 hours a week, drive a car to go to work and have an average of two kids attending school at least to 18, more ofthen to 22, and who get their teeth fixed by the age of 15, and have parents who retired by the age of 65 and get medical coverage etc etc... The lifestyle is the same all across Europe (it can be different individualy of course) and poeple see that.
I guess I'm not the only one who is thinking this way S2

The Great Backlash.
The protectionist crowd, is still a minority. There are only so many Patrick Buchanans out there. The overwhelming majority of these tribalists/nationalists, are less into the protectionism part. Most people still want to be able to act globally, which means economic interaction. Its the uniqueness of different groups that is important to them. Unfortunately, the protectionists are the most vocal, and are more 'in-your-face' about it.

This situation is different from the last great global recession of the 1930s, but I fear he is correct in the rise of the National Socialists, violence, and war. Sorry for the rambling, but I think he is trying to put the near future into the same bundle as the last one.
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