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We have to react strongly here,the days of patience are over. I've had my say here earlier,I think we drove Putin into this type of response,but now that he is acting this way,we should start the hard squeeze on Russia like we have on Iran.

There has to be some serious pain for causing us this trouble. Bush will do nothing of course.




http//www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177566,00.html
Quote:The state arms export agency, Rosoboronexport, said it had no information on the reported deal.
No Iranian officials were immediately available for comment Friday, a weekly holiday in the country. There were no reports in the Iranian media about the deal.
...the windows are boarded up...everyone is gone on the front...
When Bush is going to recover? What Stratfor is saying on that?
Palladin Wrote:We have to react strongly here,the days of patience are over. I've had my say here earlier,I think we drove Putin into this type of response,but now that he is acting this way,we should start the hard squeeze on Russia like we have on Iran.

There has to be some serious pain for causing us this trouble. Bush will do nothing of course.




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177566,00.html

what sort of hard squeeze areyou talking about? look here
Quote:While the conventional weapons deal would not violate international agreements
so what do you want to put a harder squeeze on Russia for? to push it into selling nukes to Iran? first you talk about how the US drove Putin into this sort of actions and then you go on to suggest that Putin be driven even further.
Palladin, what's happened?
Tor-M is middle-range anti-aircraft missile based on carrier. It's typical defensive weapon. If Serbia would have it in 1999... Sorry, but sovereignity is impossible without weapon, there is US on the globe and peaceful euoropeans, who can ask their friend to bomb any state.
I would treat Russia at this point as a pariah state,which means we should use our influence to "disinvest" their economy by using our leverage to prevent others from investing as well.

Just like we did Libya.

It isn't against the law for us to sell Chechen jihadists anti aircraft weapons either,maybe that's what we'll end up doing,I say America can arm Russia's Muslims and cause Russia more problems than Russia can us with Iran or Syria and Putin needs to be shown that abyss and immediately.

If the above report is false,then I retract my comments.
The article is true and Bush is a coward if he doesn't react 100% by isolating Russia from the international economic system immediately. Piss on Russia. We won't "upset the balance" in Chechnya by arming them and other Muslims bordering all of Russia with Stingers either,Russia wants to play that game we're fully capable as well.

http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4500878.stm
Yeah but then those weapons could be transfered by the jihadists to other jihadists who could use them against us. Its not a smart move. Economic isolation could help. Incentives for Russia to end the arming of Syria and Iran could help too.
Democrats4Bush2005 Wrote:Yeah but then those weapons could be transfered by the jihadists to other jihadists who could use them against us. Its not a smart move. Economic isolation could help. Incentives for Russia to end the arming of Syria and Iran could help too.
Heh! Are you able to trancfer this monstrum to jihadists?
[Image: tor_mp31.jpg]
Russia has no obligations about this class of weapon.
Your logic sounds like Stalin's about "agressive Finns", who were building Mannergeim line.
Aw, it reminds me supplying Albanians with weapons against Serbs.
Palladin Wrote:I would treat Russia at this point as a pariah state,which means we should use our influence to "disinvest" their economy by using our leverage to prevent others from investing as well.

Just like we did Libya.

the US doesn't have enough leverage to have Russia totally isolated at this point, and in case you didn't know the ammount of foreign investment in russian economy is still very modest so even if you manage to get all foreign investors to diinvest Russian economy, few people in Russia will notice. Actually currently in Russia there exists a number of groups advocating isolationism, most of these also have nationalist and revesionist overtones to them so if you George W. follows your advice he just might inadvertently help those groups come to power in Russia (actually in a way they are in power because some of the prominent participants in the United Russia block are also advocates of protecitonism and isolationism)

Quote: It isn't against the law for us to sell Chechen jihadists anti aircraft weapons either,maybe that's what we'll end up doing,I say America can arm Russia's Muslims and cause Russia more problems than Russia can us with Iran or Syria and Putin needs to be shown that abyss and immediately.

If the above report is false,then I retract my comments.

there's a lega difference between Chechen militants and Iran, the difference is that the indipendent state of Ichkeria, that existed in the second half o the 1990's eventually never managed to develop in an internationally recognized independent state for a number of reasons both internal and external while Iran has been an independent state for years. You can't supply weapons to chechen militants because legally they are criminals (yet every once in a while police forces operating in chechnya do find stingers and other US made weaponry there, these usually get there indirectly) Currently it's a totally different story with Iran, to the best of my knowlege currently there's no international embargo on weapon sales to Iran. I'd suggest George W. instead strike a deal with Putin to have some of the proceeds from the sale transferred to finance the anti Chaves movement in Venezuella, in that way the status quoe could be reestablished, like been there done that, revenue off weapon sales to Iran used to finance gurellas in Latin America, should sound familiar.

Now as for Muslims, Russia's not scared of muslims as such, in fact a huge proportion of the russian population are muslims and Putin even took part in some kind of a forum of muslim countries recently, as an observer for the time being. There's the problem of chechen separatism but most chechens are recent converts because traditionally they are animalists rather than muslims but in any case Basaeff every once in a while puts forward peace proposals which usually involve independence for Checnya and a promise on his part to make sure no attacks are carried out against Russia in the following 20 years (being a realist he realizes he can't give any guarantees beyond that). See in the muslim world the US is perceived as the evil empire, you antagonize Russia and it just might flip, give independence to Chechnya and instantly become friends with the world's muslims (actually it has a long history of helping them so there's a fair amount of trust between them) now tell me what will happen them, even with a disinvested economy russia is still capable of turning out nukes en masse so that if push comes to shove it'll be able to arm the whole muslim world with them, so that's what you want then , or let me say if that's what Bush wants he should definitely go ahead and do what you want him to.
Henry,

The US cannot do as much with Russia as with Libya,but we can harm Russia severely. With globalism,we can stop lots of loans and deals simply because we can tell European states that refuse to agree with us that they cannot trade with us if they deal with Russia.

This issue is important enough to do that,IMO.

As far as arming Chechens,I would not DO that yet,but I sure would keep it on the back burner.

Iran is run by nutcase mullahs and if these Russians want to cause us problems,we have to reciprocate hard.
Actually it's impossible to disinvest Russia.
Russia's Gazprom owns 35% of the world gas market and Russia is the second largest oil producer after Saudi Arabia.
Let's face it, Russia's geopolitical ambitions are result of high oil prices caused by war in Iraq (thanks Bush). Russia's investment climate improves every year dramatically. This year capital flight has cut in half.
Certainly the Russian military get their share of the golden rain.

Certainly Russia wants the high prices for oil to be frozen or to grow further. I suspect Bush and his friends from (the?) Texas want the same.

Ironically, the 1 billion sale to Iran may turn into billions of profit to both sides.
Does anybody of you guys have any info about oil price index ?
G,

Russia has to sell her hydrocarbons regardless of geo political concerns,I don't see your large share of the market as meaningful in this context.

For instance,the day before we invaded Iraq,we were Iraq's largest customer. We still are today,no change.
Palladin Wrote:Henry,

The US cannot do as much with Russia as with Libya,but we can harm Russia severely. With globalism,we can stop lots of loans and deals simply because we can tell European states that refuse to agree with us that they cannot trade with us if they deal with Russia.
globalism works both ways so that the US would suffer as much if not more than Europe in the unlikely event of cutting all economic ties with Europe and Europe in its turn is currently dependent on supplies of russian natural gas, so it can really put a serious trade embargo on Russia without having half its population freezing in winter. SO while the US might be theonly remaining superpower it still needs the rest of the world to eb the superpower in, otherwise things just stop making sense. Economies have grown too interdependent so you can't pull these embargo tricks any more unless you're talking of very specialized industries (like the US could put a ban on supplying chips to russia, could look nice on paper, but would accomplish little in reality because those chips would still be making into russia via places liek China) or in the case of small third world nations. Though it has to be said that most of these small thrid world nations don't give much of a hoot about embargoes either because if it's a really small and a really third world nation chances are it's economy pretty much cut off from the rest of the world anyway.

Quote: This issue is important enough to do that,IMO.
don't think so, considering the amount of crap the US has done to russia in the past couple of years with those color revolutions and pupper leaders installed in places like Georgia Russia'd need to pull a Carebean crises part II to get back. And here you're talking about a small time sale of a bunch of surface to air missiles to Iran and it's not like the US is officially prepping for going into Iran yet, so what's the big deal?

Quote: As far as arming Chechens,I would not DO that yet,but I sure would keep it on the back burner.

Iran is run by nutcase mullahs and if these Russians want to cause us problems,we have to reciprocate hard.
why do you thing you have to reciprocate, what's this, an instinct? Think abt where we'd be if everyone felt they had to reciprocate for every piece of crap thrown their way? They have that kind of shit in Chechnya by the way, they call it Karavat, in the west it's better known by the name of Vendetta, whole clans capping each other for generations on end, it's a world of shit.
Worth reading:
Quote:Even though Russia has more to fear from an imperial Iran than Washington, American blundering in the former Soviet Union has given Tehran additional room to maneuver. And Iran's leaders have played the divisions among their prospective enemies masterfully, again calling to mind the Austrian corporal who nearly destroyed the West.
I'll wait and read Condaleeza's take on it. (Of course - it may not be revealed for twenty years.)

My personal first impression is that thank goodness it's Russian technology and not our own reworked military tech run through PRC reverse engineering. We proved in both Gulf wars that Russian technology is militarily inconsequential.

I doubt we have all the correct info and the behind-the-scenes goings-on. Wouldn't it be interesting if this was a brokered deal, like the Tow missiles we allowed Israel to sell to Iran during Iran-Contra? Those were obsolete and we had the remote-control codes for them. What happens tomorrow if Iran suddenly opens up their nuke program in exchange for this?
Quote:We proved in both Gulf wars that Russian technology is militarily inconsequential.

Grrrrrrrreat. So what the fuss all about? S2
Green Wrote:
Quote:We proved in both Gulf wars that Russian technology is militarily inconsequential.

Grrrrrrrreat. So what the fuss all about? S2

That was old crap.

We're worried over the new stuff.
[Image: PR20051101160542.GIF]
Runet says it is the only complex in the world capable to destroy high-precision rockets and bombs and to detect up to 48 targets at once.
There is also some info about Iranian delegation at the military mill.
The article dated 06-03-2001
Henry,

Vendetta is getting even for something,I think we have to retaliate to cause Putin to change his ideas about assisting the mad mullahs.

I could care LESS what negative affect it has on our economy,if we're too cowardly to react to this provocation,NONE of us deserve a job!

You want to sit back and watch them arm Iran it's your business,I don't and that's mine.
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