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Full Version: Rompuy warns of Europe unraveling; scared EU might lose power
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics...ompuy.html

Yea, if I were a senior figure in what has proven to be a massive financial and political power amassing scheme, I would be warning people and telling them they cannot just leave or renegotiate their participation in the EU. This sounds like the Politburo telling Estonia it couldn't leave the USSR or something back in the day.

I think it's going to happen regardless of what Mr. Rompuy wants or desires. I know the EU is important for the centralization of power and money across the continent, but if nations do not want to participate under the control and directions not of their own desires, then they will leave regardless.
Tait, that is exactly why the EU is destined to fall apart. Even if it gets by this latest crisis it is doomed.

What ever made them actually think they could make something like this work? They should have stopped with the original Common Market system. Everyone kept their own sovereignty intact, and allowed free economic trade. They just weren't satisfied with something that really worked to everyone's advantage. Suckers!
John, I think that a number of people just weren't satisfied with their status and the amount of power they had somewhere, so they wanted more. And now, it will crumble in the coming years perhaps. I don't care about the economic details concerning the EU, but mostly the political ones.

I see the EU as the expanding and consolidating imperialistic entity of the later 20th and early 21st centuries. You cannot do this anymore and expect to really succeed.
No the EU is not the USSR. It gives lot of leeway to individual state who want or need extra time, derogation and stuff.

The UK has been the king of derogative privilege. To the point we wonder what they are still doing in the EU.
The EU law is not a restaurant: You don't pick your laws a la carte as the Brits would want to.

If they don't like it they can leave it but they shouldn't think it will hurt only the EU, it will hurt the UK inevitably.
I also question the rationale behind not wanting to be in the EU and express digust at using the €.
Their economy, bail-outed banks and debt are moreless in the same shape as that of your average south european state...

Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat deputy Prime Minister Wrote:Britain should instead be exercising its leadership role in Europe

That's the right response. Indeed the UK has the weight to influence the EU as much as Germany and France.
They just should get to the idea that the British Empire is no more and they better join in the new thing.

It's also incredibly stupid to be in Europe geographicaly and not want to be in the european free trade zone.

JL Wrote:Even if it gets by this latest crisis it is doomed.
Now that we have a sovereign debt crisis everybody is pointing the finger at the EU. Ironicaly the EU is not responsible for all these debts, decided at individual state levels, and save them all.

But the EU is forcing governements to balance their budget.
Here again instead of praising common sens, everybody accuse the EU of causing recession and imposing austerity.

Finaly the EU has decided to bail out banks, moribund states. And they are still not happy.

When will the poeple finaly point the finger at the right culprit: They local governements and local politicians who are overspending!
(01-07-2013, 04:21 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: [ -> ]
JL Wrote:Even if it gets by this latest crisis it is doomed.
Now that we have a sovereign debt crisis everybody is pointing the finger at the EU. Ironicaly the EU is not responsible for all these debts, decided at individual state levels, and save them all.

But the EU is forcing governements to balance their budget.
Here again instead of praising common sens, everybody accuse the EU of causing recession and imposing austerity.

Finaly the EU has decided to bail out banks, moribund states. And they are still not happy.

When will the poeple finaly point the finger at the right culprit: They local governements and local politicians who are overspending!

Read this slowly and all of it, ok?

Fred, I have been stating this all along. The EU is going to fail. Its that simple because of one over-riding factor. I've been quoting John Naisbett since the late 90s. He is perhaps the leader in 'Trend Theory'. And he has stated with authority, that by the year 2100 there will be double the number of sovereign countries on the planet, and all due to this instant global reach.

The more capable we are of communicating better, the more we can act globally. And the better we are at that, the more each group/tribe wishes to maintain its uniqueness. Further, it wants to have autonomy over its own group/tribe. Noone wants other groups/tribes telling them what to do.

His thesis was "As we Act globally, we think tribally". This is the complete opposite of what bureaucrats, and control freaks, want to hear. But people want to interact with everyone else, but only as they choose. And they want to control their own destiny.

And that is why the EU, Russia, US, Indonesia, China, and Brazil(as it becomes more populous) is going to have tremendous pressure to have many of its parts split off and go it on their own. They want autonomy, not more control placed on them.

This is so elemental with we humans that no amount of control nuts are going to be able to change it. WE WANT OUR LIBERTY, and we are determined to have it, one way or the other. Bureaucrats, and Collectivits/Statists just refuse to see this. Citizens of Rome don't appreciate bureaucrats in Brussels telling them what they can eat/buy/say/do/go, etc.

The main reason why the US has been immune to this was our unique form of federalism. Individual states had a great deal of sovereignty and we are slowly losing it. And the more we lose, the more we are going to pull away from DC. That is why I am a big fan of secession when the citizens want it. They have the right to determine their own destiny, not some bureaucrat in DC. Or even Brussels, or Moscow, or Beijing for that matter.

One more time, and I believe this completely: "As we act globally, we think tribally."
"As we act globally, we think tribally."

I will be very, very excited for the time the US gov't realizes this and suffers the consequences of such thinking.
John, this theory might be true, but these independant states need pan-continental organisation to exist on the global stage.
To protect their interrests they need to unite with other nations with the same interrests.

In the EU we are 27 and we definetly feel stronger than alone.

G4S Wrote:I will be very, very excited for the time the US gov't realizes this and suffers the consequences of such thinking.
Imagine how many guns you will sell once you turn the US into a second Africa S2
I know right? Capitalism will never go extinct. Probably be a lot more opportunity and fun than Europe under whatever batch of asshole bureaucrats that are running it. If we became Brazil (well, we will), then that is fine with me too.
G4U, you are absolutely right. Even under the harshest circumstances capitalism, like fleas, will go underground. People have been trading through all recorded history including anthropological records, and presumably before that, no matter what the political circumstances might be. Trading inexorably leads to capitalism, of one sort or another.