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I don't believe Islam itself creates homosexuality. It seems more a byproduct of the social welfare systems set up in the Gulf Arab states.
I think most the gay proclivities are driven by their female theology. I asked Osmanli( former poster here and at Kamil's old site) once and another Muslim this question, "Does Islam teach that females are inherently evil compared to males"?

Both said yes. That's why they have to keep covered up, but, for this discussion, IMO, it is why the males are more open to gay sex even though it's wrong to them to do this. Their desires towards females are so verboten with "going to hell" implications, they cannot think like that and they sublimate those desires into homosexuality, then rationalize it away.

I've talked to too many soldiers& sailors including my son and universally they tell the same story. To Muslims( at least Iraq and Afghanistan), the woman is for child bearing, the male is for fun. I have yet to speak to a vet who had a different impression.
Among some of the *peasantry* and more conservative Muslims, this is quite true, and quite false -- people get strung up for homosexuality in the Islamic world as well.

Those that are educated or lax in their theological adherence to Islam tend to not be that way.
(10-31-2012, 10:00 PM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ]I think most the gay proclivities are driven by their female theology. I asked Osmanli( former poster here and at Kamil's old site) once and another Muslim this question, "Does Islam teach that females are inherently evil compared to males"?

Both said yes. That's why they have to keep covered up, but, for this discussion, IMO, it is why the males are more open to gay sex even though it's wrong to them to do this. Their desires towards females are so verboten with "going to hell" implications, they cannot think like that and they sublimate those desires into homosexuality, then rationalize it away.

I've talked to too many soldiers& sailors including my son and universally they tell the same story. To Muslims( at least Iraq and Afghanistan), the woman is for child bearing, the male is for fun. I have yet to speak to a vet who had a different impression.

Remember when we first went into Aftghanistan, there were articles posted here where older male Afghanis were talking about all their pretty little boys, who they loved to 'diddle'? They were going on and on about it, as though this was the principle way to 'count coupe'?

I'm sure its somewhere, waaaaaaaaay back in the early days of this forum, back in 2004. S13S18

All this tends to make me ill, every time I think about it all. Just one more reason why Islam is slowly committing suicide.
Lets see what I can come up with here:

Afghan Pedophilia: A way of life, say U.S. soldiers and journalists

Afghanistan's dirty little secret

Paedophilia ‘culturally accepted in south Afghanistan’

Stop Enabling Pedophilia

I could go on, and on, and on, and.............................. And the only reason why we see so much in Afghanistan is because there are many of us there and we are able to witness it. This is going on all over the world of Islam, where women are thought of only as baby maker, and basically trash otherwise. What more can one expect anyway?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5n1ps1duMs
(10-31-2012, 10:00 PM)Palladin Wrote: [ -> ]I think most the gay proclivities are driven by their female theology. I asked Osmanli( former poster here and at Kamil's old site) once and another Muslim this question, "Does Islam teach that females are inherently evil compared to males"?

Both said yes. That's why they have to keep covered up, but, for this discussion, IMO, it is why the males are more open to gay sex even though it's wrong to them to do this. Their desires towards females are so verboten with "going to hell" implications, they cannot think like that and they sublimate those desires into homosexuality, then rationalize it away.

I've talked to too many soldiers& sailors including my son and universally they tell the same story. To Muslims( at least Iraq and Afghanistan), the woman is for child bearing, the male is for fun. I have yet to speak to a vet who had a different impression.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. I don't think you can *turn* someone gay - it does indeed appear to be genetic.

"Gay Muslims" is something that only effects the rich Gulf states. I think it may have something to do with their social welfare systems, which seem to "naturally select" for those prone to homosexuality, for whatever reasons. Of course, the number of gays increase because gay men stay in the closet, marry women and have children, and pass their gay genes onto those children.
I can agree with that. There isn't much evidence of any genetic proclivity toward homosexuality.

If you can point to one single bit of research that shows different, please post a link to it. All I've seen have been corrupt ideologues who have been found guilty of fudging their data, and then apologized for lying. The research that has been authenticated, is that any dysfunction, sexual or not, is usually passed on by experience.

All mammals - including people - have psychological mechanisms that allow them to adopt a behavioral system which is opposite to any current way of thinking. Go through the whole Pavlov - Jonathan Edwards Psychology of Persuasion thing and see how it works. I'd refer you to old articles that no longer work, because they, of course, ran counter to the politically-correct heavy-handed censorship of the owners of the servers where they once were stored. Now, to see them, you need to pay money to see .pdfs of archived medical journal articles.

Wife beaters usually can be compared to family experience. Same with what was considered sexual dysfunction before 1971 when the American Psychological Association ordered by fiat that homosexuality would no longer be considered a sexual dysfunction. It's an old story - but the APA had been taken over by activist gay leaders and made that ruling by fiat. Since then, research has come in consistently to support that fiat - but has been as quickly slapped down. If there are new studies that have not been debunked, they must be fairly new.

We do know that any individual has the potential to choose sexual activity. What has never been proven is that individuals are only created to have only one choice. Most people who grow up in a healthy household will mirror the actions that seem to work and bring happiness to family members. People are also imprinted by peer pressure and proselyzation. Anything we learn on our own or is taught can become deeply ingrained belief in anything.

Whether it is religion, politics, or sexuality, it can come from without - and all can also be altered. Of course it is now politically incorrect to desire sexuality counseling and alteration of actions considered acceptable. Do so, and as a practitioner or counselor, you will be denigrated as a bigot, even though the therapy works and gives the individual what that individual desires.

Why a Muslim man thinks women are only for child bearing and males for fun does so because the culture bends that way. What must be remembered is that when it comes to choice being genetic, anyone can overcome what is hard-wired into them if they so desire. Research such as MK-Ultra has learned how to imprint on a person's spirit, but it also has shown how to resist it. Behavioral psychology has also demonstrated how easy it is to cure or cause dysfunction - even if that person firmly believes he or she is genetically designed to be one thing or another.

In other words, genetic disposition has not been demonstrated - largely because the genetic effect in any sane human action is less important than rational choice. If there is a gay gene, it wouldn't matter - because a person can change. Some won't. Some don't want to - but all those who have wanted to change seem able to do so.

Hiding Truth From Schoolchildren: It's Elementary Revisited:
Quote:Released in 1996 by producers Helen Cohen and Oscar winner Debra Chasnoff, this video is still quite controversial, in part because it shows elementary school children talking about homosexuality in public schools. In one of the segments, there is a young gay man answering questions from middle school students about what it is like to be gay. The film is still being shown in schools but there is a little known fact about that young man that today's viewers don't know. The young man in the video is no longer gay. And that is something producers Chasnoff and Cohen as well as at least one school committee in Maryland don't want you to know.

Noé Gutierrez, the young man that told his story in the video, came out as gay at 16 but then came out again as ex-gay at 24. On “It's Elementary,” he was filmed speaking to a San Francisco area middle school on behalf of Community United Against Violence. Mr. Gutierrez was quite involved in gay advocacy and frequently spoke publicly on this topic. However, about six years later Mr. Gutierrez went through a period of re-evaluation and change. The end result was his change of sexual identity from gay to straight.

I don't care how a person chooses to live - and some pairings of same-sex people appear stable and sensible to some extent. I just don't like the false paradigm that choice is not a part of the process. A person's choice trumps anything hard-wired into them.
I can't speak for other Moslem Countries, but in Turkey female prostitution is legal, and has been legal since the Ottoman Era.

Homosexuality is considered immoral and there is no way gays can set examples for youth to follow. Even though there were/are some singers who act like they could be gays, but except for their close friends nobody knows for sure their sexual preferences .

Turks believe that homosexuality is common in Afganistan due to Alexander the Great bringing the Greek Culture to the region.
(11-01-2012, 04:09 PM)Kamil Wrote: [ -> ]I can't speak for other Moslem Countries, but in Turkey female prostitution is legal, and has been legal since the Ottoman Era.

Homosexuality is considered immoral and there is no way gays can set examples for youth to follow. Even though there were/are some singers who act like they could be gays, but except for their close friends nobody knows for sure their sexual preferences .

Turks believe that homosexuality is common in Afganistan due to Alexander the Great bringing the Greek Culture to the region.

That's interesting because while there may be some truth to the thinking of Alexander and his sexual proclivity. However, he did not just suddenly disappear from Greece, and suddenly reappear in Afghanistan. He conquered Persia and spent time in other places before going to Afghanistan, and back.

So, what about those places? What makes Afghanistan unique?

Kamil, I tend to consider Turkey pretty much unique amongst the rest of the world of Islam. I may be wrong, but that is how I see things. Well, let me rephrase that. I consider the problem as radiating outward, from the very home of Islam, which is Arabia. The closer to its home, the more absurd it seems to be. If you move out, away from Mecca, the influence appears to be more diluted. But the closer in, the more it fits the stereotype.

Does that make sense?
I should have made it clear Iraq and Afghanistan "Muslims" was my subject as that's who we've come in contact with.

In Afghanistan, they seem to have a way of rationalizing away the pedophile homosexuality by saying the child is not guilty, the adult is not as the boy is a child.

Genetics plays a role in gay proclivities, but, in these societies, the faith drives the male sex drive to males. Females are evil because of their sexual attraction. Going to hell isn't a cool thought and the truth is almost all of us are going to screw someone in our youth.

If you read of some hetero males who have gay sex in prison, you'll see a similarity.
John, I don't know much about feelings and actions of people in most Islamic Countries.
I read at Atheism Site about homosexuality in Saudi Arabia http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/03/13/ho...arabia.htm
It appears to me according to the article on that site, homosexuality is tolerated because of more liberal policies. Of course this does not tell us much what was going on behind the closed doors. I guess if young males had no way to meet young girls, they could have been meeting each other S4
(11-01-2012, 04:09 PM)Kamil Wrote: [ -> ]I can't speak for other Moslem Countries, but in Turkey female prostitution is legal, and has been legal since the Ottoman Era.

Homosexuality is considered immoral and there is no way gays can set examples for youth to follow. Even though there were/are some singers who act like they could be gays, but except for their close friends nobody knows for sure their sexual preferences .

Turks believe that homosexuality is common in Afganistan due to Alexander the Great bringing the Greek Culture to the region.

Well, ancient Greeks often had similar views on women as the Afghans do.....

And I did not know that about the prostitution at all in Turkey. How does this juxtapose with Islam?

Or has the Turkish people always had a more distant and less....orthodox view of things compared to the rest of the Moslem world?
As far as I know Christianity, Judaism and Islam prohibits prostitution.
In Turkey for years an Armenian Madam run the biggest brothel in Istanbul, Turkey. For years she was the biggest taxpayer in Turkey.
Most of the prostitutes she used came from Eastern European Nations. In order not to upset Christians, she required that all prostitutes converted to Islam before starting their occupation.

Brothels run by Turks demanded that all prostitutes working there become Christians.

I think most of the brothels in Turkey are controlled by Government.

When I was young I thought brothels in the middle of Istanbul were OK, now I'm not so sure about it. Brothels were set up on one street, where operators bought all the houses on the street. It was kind of embarrassing to people living in the close by streets when some NATO Warship came to Istanbul, and hundreds of sailors were seen marching toward the brothel. Also it was hard to explain to young kids the reason they can't go into that street. I think now most brothels moved or are in the process of moving to the outside of city limits.


I got the following information from ProCon.com
Turkey
Population: 76,805,524
Prostitution: Legal
Requires registering and attending clinics for regular examinations. Must carry identity card indicating the dates of his or her health checks. Health checks can be as often as twice a week. Sexworkers cannot be married and their children are barred from occupying high rank in the army or police, or marrying persons of such rank, although they can work in other areas of government service.
Brothel Ownership: Limited Legality
Official brothels in Turkey are state-run. The Turkish penal code states that it is illegal to shelter a person for prostitution.
Pimping: Illegal
] special unit in the Prime Ministry's Human Rights Department will begin a project aimed at giving prostitutes the opportunity to find alternative employment, the daily Aksam reported Sunday.
Sociologists and psychologists interviewed 3,000 registered prostitutes working at brothels to determine whether they have been forced into the job and whether they would prefer another line of employment.
There are 15,000 registered prostitutes in Turkey, 3,000 of whom work in 56 brothels. There are an estimated 100,000 unregistered prostitutes in the country."
http://prostitution.procon.org/view.reso...eID=000772
It should be reminded that for muslim "penetrating a man" (or a young boy) is not an act of homosexuality.
Only "being penetrated" is considered as such and is punishable (by death of course).

Since the Jihadist will by martyred by exploding his anus, he is allowed to have it enlarged by the method described in the article. His death sentence will come at the same time of his sacrifice for Islam.
In this view, the Imam's logic makes sens.

I wonder what Osmanli would say about it....

"Penetrating a woman" is not an act of homosexuality (let's precize it, you never know... with them...) but it's also sinful because it's adultery.
Whereas "Penetrating a boy" is neither an act of adultery (which can happen only with women) and not an act of homosexuality (as explained above).
Hence, it's allowed by religious law.

It's not an act of adultery because you don't marry "young boys". As there is no gay marriage in the muslim world, there can't be gay adultery neither.

So you can penetrate boys everyday and in infinite numbers, you will never be accused of adultery or be seen as an homosexual.

Borat Wrote:This guy in the shower who wanted to put this thing in my.... he was... an homosexual!!!???
[nod]

Kamill Wrote:Turks believe that homosexuality is common in Afganistan due to Alexander the Great bringing the Greek Culture to the region.
LOL S2

Funny how some part of the world has built an image of "gay greeks" whhile it's far from true. (but turks don't like greeks much. Do they?). Alexander The Gay, sorry.., the Great was not proen to be gay. It's just a rumor. Like the Queen of Lesbos. It's all imagination created 2500 years after the facts.


G4U Wrote:Well, ancient Greeks often had similar views on women as the Afghans do.....
I agree. All men ran naked* while women had to wear a tunic from feet to breast.
S5

*: The movie "300" shows soldiers in underwears, but that's not the historical truth. Between their helmet and leg protections, they were fully naked, the ding-dong in the air!
(11-02-2012, 07:23 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: [ -> ]It should be reminded that for muslim "penetrating a man" (or a young boy) is not an act of homosexuality.
Only "being penetrated" is considered as such and is punishable (by death of course).
I checked few chapters of Qaran, and noticed that homosexuality is called "LUT" and strongly condemned, and punishment described is same as adultry for both partners.
Koran condemning LOOT? No freaking way. S6
Kamil, could you check if the Quran gives a detailed description of what an homosexual intercourse is? Because "commerce with a man" is not very descriptive.
Absent of detailed information, muslims can decide whatever they deem appropriate.

The Quran condemn both partners, ok, but if the poeple consider that there is no homosexuality involved for the man who is not penetrated, he cannot be a partner in an homosexual relationship. Only the one who is penetrated can be punished. "Both partners" suggest in this case that both have penetrated each other during the intercourse in question.

For most muslims and many other culture in Africa, India, China etc, a man who penetrate another male person doesn't do anything homosexual because he does the action of the man. As long as you do the action of the man, no matter on a male or on a female partner, they will never say that you are gay. Therefore making the Quran's interdict irrelvant.

For them the definition is not based on who the partner is, but what role you took.

For the one who took the role of the woman, it's the ultimate humiliation leading to bannishment or suicide if discovered.

Odds are high that in their interpretation of the Quran poeple from such areas will follow this way of thinking.

Of course muslims living in the West may think otherwise as they assimilated western culture.
I'll add that in the article posted by mv, the militant asks the imam if he can be allowed to ask brothers to penetrate him.
Never does he ask permission for those who will do it.

It's another evidence that these poeple assume that those who will do it won't do anything forbiden.
Quran has almost the exact same description of homosexuality and punishment is the same as in conservative Judaism and Christianity circles. I checked several versions of Quran and did not see detailed description of the act. Mostly it is stated as sexual act between two males and lust for another man, and Sodom and Gomorrah is given as an example.

Like in many religions, in Islam some people try to figure out loopholes for not following Quran, the diffence in degree of crime between two partners of homosexuality you cite might be from one of these groups.

Quote:Excerpt from Wikipedia
Passages in the Qur'an and statements attributed to the prophet Muhammad are interpreted. The mainstream interpretation of Qur'anic verses and hadith condemn homosexuality and cross-dressing. In this, Islam resembles socially conservative interpretations of other Abrahamic religions such as Judaism and Christianity.

The Qur'an cites the story of the "people of Lot" (also known as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah), destroyed by the wrath of God because they engaged in "lustful" carnal acts between men.

Scholars of Islam, such as Sheikh al-Islam Imam Malik, and Imam Shafi amongst others, ruled that Islam disallowed homosexual activity and ordained capital punishment for a person guilty of it.[1] Homosexual activity is a crime and forbidden in most Muslim-majority countries. In the Islamic regimes of Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, North Sudan and Yemen, homosexual activity is punished with the death penalty. In Nigeria and Somalia the death penalty is issued in some regions.[2] The legal punishment for sodomy has varied among juristic schools: some prescribe capital punishment; while other prescribe a milder discretionary punishment such as imprisonment. In some relatively secular Muslim-majority countries such as Indonesia,[3] Jordan and Turkey this is not the case; and there are no specific civil laws against homosexual practice.
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