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I figured this should be separate because this could be a wholly major conflict in the near future as the Arab Spring was more a ticket to power for the Islamists.

Certainly a lesson to the more weaker and pacified Western Christian Sects - I do not think the Copts will be so easily eradicated or punished given they've had to deal with this sort of thing the last couple of thousand years.

It's also a lesson on how much of a failure we are in dealing with the reality of the Arab World.
There's a little confusion . First there was a Church burning by salafist nuts. Then some Christians started this protest in Cairo. Then the Egyptian Army drove APCs right over a bunch of protestors.

Now Stratfor is out with an article about an assault on the Egyptian Army and several soldiers are dead.

I can't determine if this is the same protest.

The Copts know how to protect themselves, but, they still = 10% in an unstable Muslim nation. Wisdom tells me it's time to be cool.
http://fereastrasprelumestratfor.wordpre...-in-cairo/ -- Stratfor.

Incidentally, have you noticed that the Boy muttered something about protecting the Copts? -- is he so desperate about reelection?
How's he going to accomplish that, I might implore?
By giving more speeches, of course.
We'll send the Army in.
This is a good study for me to use about how a Christian should interface with his state. In the past, I felt like Ron w/o the namby pamby part. I didn't cull much, if we wanted to make war, let's do it and let's win.

Now, I have started seeing the world w/o the nationalism lenses. What is different to me now?

In Iraq& Afghanistan, the Christians are worse off than before the Americans arrived( just read an article, the last physical Church in Afghanistan has been forcibly closed down since the Americans arrived, they existed under Taliban).

In Palestine, the local Arab Christians suffer terribly due to our role there and the Muslim's seeing them as "American lackeys".

In the Arab spring states such as Egypt, the Christians are for the old governors and are now in danger moreso than yesterday.

So, I'll be less avid to get involved than ever before.
(10-11-2011, 07:01 PM)Gunnen4u Wrote: [ -> ]We'll send the Army in.

Apparently you are correct... Hillary said something to this effect.

By the time we are done there will be no Copt left standing.
I have an eye for stuff like this.
Arab rage evidently seeks an easy target. And we think these folks can run a modern democratic (impartial rule of law) government after we leave Iraq and Afghanistan and after the "Arab Spring"?!!

Besides, the war on Christianity in the US and EU seems to be working, so why not have it extended to the Middle East, albeit more brutally?

Well, with Copts like this, who needs Islamists?
[Image: zakaria-botros-copie-1.jpg]

Don't reduce everything to christianity versus islam. The problem is the sectarian and tribal mentality rather than religion.

The Copts are a minority, wrong for them. In times of chaos like these, it's no good being the minority.
But that has nothing to do with the Arab Sprong which is first and foremost an urban phenomenon.

The West had never the pretention to save or even help the Copts. The West deals with regimes and groups who are relevant on the chessboard. Copts are insignificant. Just like Armenians or any other christian sect lost somewhere in regions so remote that the latin alfhabet never reached.
Why should we compromise our global efforts for these poeple. Do wehave a debt against them? Did they save us from something in the past?

If the goal was to expand chirstianism, we would need a radical change in foreign politics, and the result would be very different.
That's a valid point Fred makes and it's why as a Christian I no longer care for or support anything the USA does outside the nation.

However, JT's point was also valid. We have supported various revolutionary forces now and from Afghanistan to Egypt it is clear that the Christians are paying for our successes, such as they are.

It may or may not be best for the USA to see states governed where minorities are treated worse than quality cattle, but, let us dispense with the propaganda that the USA is about anything but advancing her power at the expense of anyone that ends up on the wrong side of it.

No different than any other state with power.
It's not "Christianity vs Islam". It is radical Islam vs the Enlightenment and the West. The minority Christians being picked on are just easy targets for a mob, just like the Catholic clergy were during the French revolution.
Yea, if the Christians were Jews or Hindus, it would be the same.

It's "the other".
Yes, and on the other hand, we can't postpone or cancel multibillion dollars operation of global importance because some minorities may face violence.
25,000 muslims died killing each others in Lybia, that means nextdoor, so who care about 3 Copts cobbed to death?
Looking at the final death-watch, the proportion of muslims who died in the Arab Spring, all countries combined, may be higher than that of the non-muslims.

I'm not saying we should ignore them, but they are a secondary issue, unfortunately.

They are a secondary issue to a man who worships money above lives of fellow humans so long as the humans aren't you or your family. You would have been a great American.
It's not the question of "money" over "lives". Nobody was making money knowing in advance that christian copts would die as a result. IMO nobody expected that christian copts would die. It was an uncontrolled event.

There is a country of 80.5 million mostly uneducated poor poeple who saty weeks without a governement, it's almost normal that such things happen.

Nobody could have died like in Tunisia, and there could have been thousands of dead like in Lybia and Syria.

"Yes, and on the other hand, we can't postpone or cancel multibillion dollars operation of global importance because some minorities may face violence".

Like I said, you should have been an American. We uniquely worship money&power. Most everyone has in history, according to Alexis DeToqueville, we Americans best others in our avarice.

We're sophisticated, too. We murder folks and think we're morally superior to others. We create cool words like "collateral damage" in lieu of "murder victims".

Anyone watching what we helped accomplish on the Gaddafi death video should not be naive. That's who the Americans are except we're too candyassed to do it in person like the Arabs. Americans remind me of Himmler, he got sick watching some mass murders once, left that to his underlings later. We subcontract the nasty stuff.

You want mercy, go somewhere else for help. We serve up death w/o mercy and then have our leaders brag about it. Never thought I'd see my country of birth as if Tiglath Pilaser III ruled us. If he had just had some sophistication......................
Be careful not to gravitate to the other extreme, Palladin.

Still, many of the armchair warriors certainly love to continue failed policies. In more and more foreign policy and domestic issues, there is a vast disconnect between reality and policy or grand ideas.

Since 1990, with the exception of Afghanistan I consider the American role on earth = to the USSR's, Nazi Germany's, Iran's. etc.

We're only more sophisticated (i.e. we're helping the oppressed of Serbia, Somalia, Iraq, Libya,etc), we are as quick to kill, glory in killing and destruction and to consider it our right to do so w/o having any self defense motivation.

When the American anti war left revels in our killing, that opens my eyes. I expect it from warmongers like McCain and thoughtless idiots like myself 5 years back, coming from the left who ran on a peace platform, that is now frightening to this old man for our nation.

I honestly think the USA if it runs out of bad guys would bomb Canada and convince a majority here it was for the good.

This doesn't mean I oppose legitimate warmaking potential for us or that real dangers to us will exist, it means I think our role has largely become either completely illegitimate or the legitimacy is based on assisting our wealth gathering. Which with me has become illegitimate.

At one time I would have supported the Libyan thing if I thought we could get their oil industry cranking full bore because of the intervention.

There's this theory that sees the globe as the "ins" and "outs" of the system and that lots of our wars are to force the outs, in for economic purposes. I can't buy such logic anymore and I bet most of what we're trying is based on this idea.

McCain already has our next war mapped out, for "good", too. Watch, Iran won't be on this map cause they can kill a lot of us:
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