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Normally, I wouldn't give a fig what the Krauts think of us, but I'm willing to make an exception in this instance.
What?!! The Germans are no longer falling all over themselves at BHO's enunciations?

Perhaps he should schedule another Berlin speech.

Privately, the US FED is helping Europe a lot I read. Obama is trying to get Berlin to lead the pack in buying PIIGS debt up. From a US perspective, Obama is right in his desire to avoid our paying it.

He probably isn't as diplomatic as he could be though.

I wonder if it might not actually be best to let Greece default? Just let the irresponsible go, redo the euro only with the more responsible states? Yes, hard times will ensue, but, sometime the cancer must be cut out and not doctored.
That would require the Euroweenies to admit that their precious EU was a bad idea in the first place.
This to me is an interesting article. The differences here are what is interesting.

I share the view of Merkel, let the markets do what they want, fix the cancer.

Obama's view is probably a typical short sighted American idea and not leftist centric. I want it now and I want it all, welcome to America.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/world/...ml?_r=3&hp
As I see it all, its just more German rules being forced on the rest of the continent. No wonder the Brits want no part of it.

And on our side of the Atlantic, we have more "kick the can down the road" policies the Bamster is pushing.

In either case it is just more Big Government interfering with markets.
Maybe I read it wrong, my reading said Merkel wants to place the house of Germany in fiscal and monetary soundness and force this on anyone who depends on Germany to guarantee their currency. i.e. the EU.

Whereas Obama wants her to bail out the weak sisters and not make structural changes.

If I was German, I'd fully support this and if the other EU members said, "we won't follow your lead", I'd invite them to return to their national currencies and be done with the Euro project.

Germans since post WWI have run a tight economic ship over there.
(12-11-2011, 11:17 AM)John L Wrote: [ -> ]As I see it all, its just more German rules being forced on the rest of the continent. No wonder the Brits want no part of it.

And on our side of the Atlantic, we have more "kick the can down the road" policies the Bamster is pushing.

In either case it is just more Big Government interfering with markets.

This is the most accurate assessment.

The Germans want more control of other countries, and the current politicians can't afford the Euro meltdown on their watch.

The US is just trying to deflect the home grown problems and prevent the US dollar from melting down completely.

The German desire for more control is no different than the same desire here in the USA. Germany is being tasked with paying for the profligacy of the rest of the EU, of course they want to make sure it isn't needed again.

Shouldn't we want that same control over the spendthrift left here?
The Germans are productive, thrifty and sensible. If they imposed this on the rest of the EU. why would that be a bad thing? Only because the politicians in the other states, as well as their citizenry, would find it a huge culture shock to try to emulate the Germans.

Many minds in the others countries have to be changed in order for them to right their financial ships and their cultural expectations. There is no reason that the Germans should bail them out.
(12-15-2011, 06:29 PM)jt Wrote: [ -> ]The Germans are productive, thrifty and sensible. If they imposed this on the rest of the EU. why would that be a bad thing? Only because the politicians in the other states, as well as their citizenry, would find it a huge culture shock to try to emulate the Germans.

Many minds in the others countries have to be changed in order for them to right their financial ships and their cultural expectations. There is no reason that the Germans should bail them out.

If the rest of the Europeans want to place their necks on the ground so the Hun can place his foot on their necks, that's fine with me. I just don't want them to come crying and whimpering when they are uncomfortable under the yoke of a tyrant.

Tell you what: both 'TheMan' and I have actually lived 'over there' as the Brits used to say. And we know the Krauts better than most. Germans, and French to a lesser extent, love to follow a leader, and can enjoy a society where there is a rule for everything and anything under the sun. If that's what the Dutch, Danes, Spanish, Italians, etc, want, more power to them.

But certainly not me, not the Brits, and not any other Anglo country. It's not in our DNA any longer. Sure the Brits may currently be under a welfare system, but that could change.

And the more the different Euro nations accept the benevolent dictatorship of the Germans/French, the more the entire system is eventually going to fail. Tribalism is alive and well in Europe, no matter what others may say.

Hanson takes a more benevolent view of the recent German hegemony:


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/2...anson?pg=1
Quote:Behind all the EU’s eleventh-hour gobbledygook, Germany’s new European order is clear: If you wish to live like a German, then you must work and save like a German. Take it or leave it.

If you want to have your cake and play by the rulemaker, this it the way to go, especially if you are thoroughly addicted to the Collectivist Welfare State. The fabled German efficiency is legion. Hey, they get things done, right?

This is the same mystique they had during WWII as well. But they were meticulous, followed time honoured rules, and didn't encourage the competitive edge of free enterprise. Consequently an MG-34 cost three times what a later MG-42 did, and took three times longer to produce. Tigers and Panthers were wonderful engines of warfare, but they took too long to produce, and even the Soviets, and those pesky Americans, ran rings around them with hordes of cheaper and more practical tanks.

Of course the Soviets managed this because they didn't have the technology, so they made up for things by killing anyone who did not work to the beat of the slave masters.

And those pesky Americans, they had all of that Free Enterprise to rely upon. Can you guess which works best? Can you guess which offers the most to the participants?

While German efficiency, saddled with all those rules and Statist ideology, may get to the finish line ahead of most, it still fails to produce the effects of a society that relies on Free Enterprise. And that is why we need to get back on track and start doing what we do best, and what got us to the Big Dance.

Hanson doesn't mention that, for some reason. Why I don't know.
The paradigm in the article is between an efficient governance/economy and profligacy w/o nuances that you mention. I sympathize with the Germans in this respect while admiring our system better.

And here's another thing about the fabled German way of doing things. Don't you just love their great education system? You go to Grundschule until you reach that magic age of 10-12. Then you are tested and if you don't qualify for Gymnasium(college prep), you are offered a Hobson's Choice of trade schools. You get a couple of choices, but its still the decision of the State as to what you are going to be trained to do.

Remember, you are a citizen of the State, and you are there to enable the State to be successful, not the other way around. I have listened to all sorts of American elitists wax poetic about how wonderful the German system is, and how we should emulate their way of getting things done. And I used to believe that. But after living there and having made friends with some of the Komrades, who's mom married soldiers, I changed my mind. I prefer to make my own decision, rather than hand it off to the State. And if I want to learn another trade, I can do so, without fighting the system that makes it more than difficult to change in mid-stream.

Why do you think there are so many self-made millionaires, who achieved success in the US? Why do so many people want to come here and make a go at the All American Dream?
I dunno, there are a lot of retards who think they should go to college, get gov't funding to do so, and end up driving the tuition cost up for everyone else in the process. And this is becoming a huge problem here. So I have to wonder.
I have no problem with hordes wanting to go to college, even study snail reproduction, if they want to. But the State has no business sticking its nose into things. Our current system is in real need of transformation.

I suspect the internet is going to make for big changes.
That change'll never happen here in America. For now, the Germans have the only real handle on the dipshit factor. We're still going to treat everyone like a special somebody who deserves college.

In the end, unless you fix the people, you fix nothing.

What I want to know, if everything is supposed to follow a Franco-Germanic model, how are they going to enforce it if things get out of hand with the dominated peoples? They willing to use force at all? It may come to that if a European ethnicity feels it is being subverted or controlled.
(12-15-2011, 11:59 PM)Gunnen4u Wrote: [ -> ]What I want to know, if everything is supposed to follow a Franco-Germanic model, how are they going to enforce it if things get out of hand with the dominated peoples? They willing to use force at all? It may come to that if a European ethnicity feels it is being subverted or controlled.

My guess in 'not'. There is no country in Euroland that even remotely has a military that could use conquest. And the Germans currently have a tiny military.

That's why the structure of the EU is destined to fall apart and stay that way IMO. As I have stated above, tribalism is the main driving force of the 21st century, and Euroland will not be an exception to this.

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