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The 10 worst stock market crashes in U.S. History
#1
I believe we're in for a big crash because the book values of shares and particularly derivatives are by far not reinsured by real values, it's just debt handed round and everybody adds more of it.
Here the so far largest crashes of your history. Note that almost all of them occured under Republican administrations, and before the locust capitalism you worship got somewhat regulated. Well, regulation has been reversed since Reagan, and now you might gonna pay the bill. :twisted:

http://mutualfunds.about.com/cs/history/p/crash10.htm
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#2
Beginning in 1928,had you owned the S&P 500 until today,you're gain would be avegaring >8% annually with all the losses,panics and gains added together.

Capitalism creates new wealth,socialism and such kills wealth,that's why there is NO East Germany,NO USSR,but you aren't honest enough to admit it yet. I'm still optimistic for you,Quad.

I ain't giving up on ya. However,if you are in need of evidence,please visit Cuba and notice the cars they drive(the few) and the horses they still use.

The cars are 1959 models. That's what socialism does for a society,it kills it dead. Capitalism has flaws,but it also creates new wealth relentlessly.
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#3
Palladin Wrote:Beginning in 1928,had you owned the S&P 500 until today,you're gain would be avegaring >8% annually with all the losses,panics and gains added together.

Capitalism creates new wealth,socialism and such kills wealth,that's why there is NO East Germany,NO USSR,but you aren't honest enough to admit it yet. I'm still optimistic for you,Quad.
Sorry Palladin, but that's quite some crap. Perhaps 8% if you had taken part in every change of the composition of the S&P. (I now there are funds and futures reproducing the indices with their changes, but most investors try to beat the markets and fail). Not however if you had purchased the shares of the 1928 S&P and would still hold them. I'd bet you would have lost money in that case, because by far most of the 1928 companies no longer exist. To buy and hold is the dominating investment behaviour of the small time investor who hopes to upvalue his pension in 30 years from now, are you not told that to sit out a crisis is the best strategy and stocks will always recover? Well, the real problem is whether your stocks recover.
Thanks for your sympathy, anyway. I'd like to answer it. Have you checked your 401K recently? :lol:

You might try to understand that capitalism possibly run into a wall with this crisis. There can't possibly be no more growth as we knew it. We're running out of resources, and the destruction of the environment has gone too far.

You also need to grasp that the S&P has grown by 8% annually, but not your economy, and if you take all those useless service industries such as banking out, and consider only them who create real value, and consider the growth of population, you might be at 1% growth. It's still a bubble with 90% air and little substance.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#4
Q Wrote:You might try to understand that capitalism possibly run into a wall with this crisis. There can't possibly be no more growth as we knew it. We're running out of resources, and the destruction of the environment has gone too far.
Yes, capitalism has its ups and downs. The are called cycles, bubbles and crashes.

Yet, socialism or communism has only a downward direction for the economic well being of its populace. You may quote Sweden as a contradiction, but it recently adopted Reganomics as regards its industrial tax strategy. In addition, the exception proves the rule. A mistake made by a command economy (or any government) is more costly than a mistake made by a few companies.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#5
We are almost amongst the ten worst crashes in history, S&P came down from 1,576 a year ago to 996 yesterday. A little patience please, we're still at the very start of the process that'll bring you down to the 3th world standarts the elderly remember from the Great Depression. :lol:

Americans' retirement plans have lost as much as $2 trillion in the past 15 months — about 20 percent of their value

jt,
that's a bold statement, Sweden deregulating in the style of Alzheimer Ronald. Got a link? All five Scandinavian countries have adopted that socialist approach to capitalism, and apart from Norway, none of them can boast your natural resources. However, all of them are wealthier than you. Strangely, have you heared any of the Job's news from Scandinavia that bedevil you so much at present?

You know what's not fair? The economic crisis of the late 90s in the communist nations wasn't by far what it is now in capitalism. We politely asked our leaders to quit in order to try a whole different approach, and quit they did. I guess yours and our leaders asked the same today, would rather bring forward the guns. Of course, you're a lot more indoctrinated with the rightness of your ways than we were, so I don't believe you ever start to think. Wink1

Did some maths in order to verify Palladins statement about the long term performance of the S&P index. Didn't find figures for the S&P, but for the DJ.

DJ before the 1929 crash, 381
DJ after the 1929 crash, 199
DJ on 07/10/2008, 9474

annual rate of return 381 - 9474 (79 years) 4,15% per year
annual rate of return 199 - 9474 (79 years) 5,01% per year

I wonder who informed Palladin?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#6
Now it's more than 40% loss. You sure it'll come back in your life time? Have a look at the Nikkei

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5EN2...=undefined

which is at about 25% of the value it had 21 years ago, or the Nasdaq

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5EIX...=undefined

which is at some 30% of it's figure in the year 2000. Both are major indexes, the Japanese stockmarket in the late eighties even bigger than the American one.

Were would the money to fuel a new boom come from, who's got the funds in such volumes as to restore the former record levels? You've been putting for decades most of your money in stocks, your retirement funds, healthcare funds, whatever. What else could be mobilised?
There have been $ trillions wiped out for the last days. The money is not just gone somewhere else, it's wiped out.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#7
quadrat Wrote:...jt,
that's a bold statement, Sweden deregulating in the style of Alzheimer Ronald. Got a link?
Here is one of any number of links.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#8
Now what's exactly deregulation with the reduction of tax or social security fees? Deregulation, that's for example when the state sells his monopoly on train services with tax subsidized fares, and now anybody can establish a rail link and determine the fares.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#9
OK, not deregulation per se, but Reaganomics nonetheless.

Some argue that producers should pay no tax at all, and the citizens should ante up out of their incomes for their benefits. This would be much more honest since the tax producers pay is simply passed on to the citizens. Of course this assumes no monopolies or duopolies, i.e. real competition between industries.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#10
It always amazes me when folks want businesses taxed. They're just asking for higher prices. Locally,not a problem,I'd tax them locally,but federal taxes are just paid by the purchaser of the product. I'm selfish,that's why I say tax locally,this way we can get you guys to pay for our upgrades!

We really don't much understand business reality I don't think.
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#11
But it is not so hard to understand the psychology of taxation:
Don't let the suckers know how much you are taxing them.

-If business pays tax, and the price you pay when you buy includes this tax, then you don't realize you are paying the tax.
-If the government takes tax out of your paycheck every month, and you get $ back or pay a small amount April 15, you have no idea of the total tax you paid.

Under the so called "fair tax", producers are not taxed, just the consumer. You will add about 30% to the purchase price of whatever you buy. This gives you a pretty good idea of what your government is costing you. Another measure is "tax freedom day". This is when your money is all yours, and all taxes have been paid. Recently it has been about April 23 or so. About the same result: 30% of every bodies wages go to government. Just about the same percentage that feudal serfs paid to their liege lord.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#12
The taxes you pay are small amounts compared to your contributions to the profits of businesses. However, if you want lower taxes, why don't you stop your wars of aggressions and reduce the military spending by half a trillion per year? Could amount to an average $ 3,000 per year more in your pockets.
You two beauties are middle class, I guess? Not part of the 5% wealthiest Americans? Well, last night a Republican politician claimed at FOX that the 95% who would profit from Obama's tax cuts are those who don't pay taxes anyway. Insult to injury, isn't it?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#13
quadrat Wrote:The taxes you pay are small amounts compared to your contributions to the profits of businesses. However, if you want lower taxes, why don't you stop your wars of aggressions and reduce the military spending by half a trillion per year? Could amount to an average $ 3,000 per year more in your pockets.
You two beauties are middle class, I guess? Not part of the 5% wealthiest Americans? Well, last night a Republican politician claimed at FOX that the 95% who would profit from Obama's tax cuts are those who don't pay taxes anyway. Insult to injury, isn't it?

Its fine with me that business makes a profit. They provide jobs and many good things for me to buy.

I like strong national defense, and even when the Iraq war ends, we will not be able to cut the military as much as you suggest. Speak softly and carry a big stick is not a bad policy. I do agree with you to the extent that the US should no longer provide Europe's or Japan's defense. It is time for them to grow up and defend themselves. That would be considerable savings.

The Fox guy was right in the sense that Obama wants to redistribute wealth. See this post of mine. Would you like your wealth to be redistributed Q? Maybe 15 years ago Rubin suggested taxing all retirement accounts 15% "just once". So, the left may go after your money too, it is endemic to the left.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#14
Coincidentally, I pay 15% taxes. On the interest of my funds at the Thai bank here. Still 18 more years till I'm entitled to a pension from Germany. Don't think I'm gonna make it.
Europe had grown up long, long, long before your country existed. Apart from you, who'd endanger our peace? We're bigger than you, remember? How many times have I mentioned the idea you pull your troops outta Europe?
And WTF is wrong with you? The guy insulted you by claiming your are a underachiever and bum by not belonging to the wealthiest five percent, you are one of them who don't live by their jobs, but the handouts of those five percent. And you defend him? A hopeless case. :lol:
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#15
quadrat Wrote:Coincidentally, I pay 15% taxes. On the interest of my funds at the Thai bank here. Still 18 more years till I'm entitled to a pension from Germany. Don't think I'm gonna make it.
My condolences, but it appears that you will die happy, from what your have said.
Quote:Europe had grown up long, long, long before your country existed. Apart from you, who'd endanger our peace? We're bigger than you, remember? How many times have I mentioned the idea you pull your troops outta Europe?
That's a riot. Europe (collectively) started 2 world wars in the 20th century, and untold many wars after the fall of Rome. A new benchmark for "grown up" behavior. Perhaps they had learned little in those long, long, long centuries. Frankly, I have been hoping for 15 years that we would pull our troops out of Europe, so I'm with you on that one. US bases there are just another way to economically subsidize Europe, as well as to give them the false sense of security that Uncle Sugar will be there to bail them out again. A clear case of welfare dependency.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#16
jt Wrote:
quadrat Wrote:Coincidentally, I pay 15% taxes. On the interest of my funds at the Thai bank here. Still 18 more years till I'm entitled to a pension from Germany. Don't think I'm gonna make it.
My condolences, but it appears that you will die happy, from what your have said. ..

Can one die happy from syphilis?

I'm just asking.
I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!
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#17
jt Wrote:Frankly, I have been hoping for 15 years that we would pull our troops out of Europe, so I'm with you on that one. US bases there are just another way to economically subsidize Europe, as well as to give them the false sense of security that Uncle Sugar will be there to bail them out again. A clear case of welfare dependency.
Subsidize, what with? You combat troops make $200 per day in Afghanistan, and those in peaceful Europe maybe half of that. That's below our poverty line if they have a wife and kids around. And your bases are not an economic asset, but a liability. Costs us rather than you lots of money.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#18
quadrat Wrote:Subsidize, what with? You combat troops make $200 per day in Afghanistan, and those in peaceful Europe maybe half of that. That's below our poverty line if they have a wife and kids around. And your bases are not an economic asset, but a liability. Costs us rather than you lots of money.
Every base buys its food and supplies from somewhere. Unless the locals are so cost-inefficient that it is better to buy from distant sources, then every base is a cash-cow for the local economy. The disposable income from the troops are just icing on the cake. Petty little countries make an art form of enriching themselves off of our military bases. The less petty just allow the free market economy to work. No country that i've ever heard of loses money in the proposition. Most countries get more than 100% of any costs just from the rent of the base, itself.
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#19
What's your guess? DJ below 7,000 this week? Asia was a catastrophe today, much of Europe too. DAX in Germany lost a little only even though 29 out of 30 stocks declined sharply. All but one, Volkswagen rose by 89%. Madness.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#20
WmLambert Wrote:
quadrat Wrote:Subsidize, what with? You combat troops make $200 per day in Afghanistan, and those in peaceful Europe maybe half of that. That's below our poverty line if they have a wife and kids around. And your bases are not an economic asset, but a liability. Costs us rather than you lots of money.
Every base buys its food and supplies from somewhere. Unless the locals are so cost-inefficient that it is better to buy from distant sources, then every base is a cash-cow for the local economy. The disposable income from the troops are just icing on the cake. Petty little countries make an art form of enriching themselves off of our military bases. The less petty just allow the free market economy to work. No country that i've ever heard of loses money in the proposition. Most countries get more than 100% of any costs just from the rent of the base, itself.

most supplies do not seem to come from local sources based on what I can observe here in Germany. However when the Dollar was still strong the US soldiers did spend tons on the German economy and were welcome guests everywhere. not so much now.
"And down through the centuries the robes have never failed to keep the public at a respectful distance, inspire a decent awe for the professions, and impart an air of solemnity and mystery that has been as good as money in the bank. The four faculties of theology, philosophy, medicine, and law have been the perennial seedbeds, not only of professional wisdom, but of the quackery and venality so generously exposed to public view by Plato, Rabelais, Molière, Swift, Gibbon, A. E. Housman, H. L. Mencken, and others. What took place in the Greco-Roman as in the Christian world was that fatal shift from leadership to management that marks the decline and fall of civilizations." - taken from a speech by Hugh Nibley
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