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Chavez turning Venezuela into a socialist state
#41
Some of the nationalising right now is merely a reversal of the deceit of corrupt previous admins:
Quote:Over the past few days, major newspapers in the United States, such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times and The Wall Street Journal, have published editorials aggressively and harshly criticizing recent declarations and decisions made by re-elected President Hugo Chávez and his cabinet.
...
The New York Times editorial, also published on January 10, attacks a recent statement made by President Chávez regarding the nationalization of one telephone company, CANTV, and an electric company. However the Times doesn’t explain that the CANTV is the only non-cellular telephone company in the country, giving it a complete monopoly on national land-line telecommunications and control over a majority of Internet service as well. Furthermore, the CANTV was privatized only in 1991, during the second non-consecutive term of Carlos Andrés Pérez a president later impeached for corruption who implemented a series of privatization measures, despite having run for office on a non-privatization platform just three years before.
In fact, as soon as Carlos Andrés Pérez won office in 1988 after convincing the Venezuelan people he would not permit “neo-liberalism” on Venezuelan shores, he immediately began to announce the privatization of several national industries, including telecommunications, education and the medical and petroleum sectors. This deception led to massive anti-privatization protests during February 1989...
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1933
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
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#42
Stroll,

Nationalizing is theft. You're discussing private property here. If it's wrong to steal,it is wrong to steal.

Aside from this,how can you think that Chavez might run an enterprise with more success than private investors?

Are you aware of the output of the PDVSA since Chavez took office? Cut almost in half.
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#43
Palladin Wrote:Stroll,

Nationalizing is theft. You're discussing private property here. If it's wrong to steal,it is wrong to steal.

Aside from this,how can you think that Chavez might run an enterprise with more success than private investors?

Are you aware of the output of the PDVSA since Chavez took office? Cut almost in half.
----------------------------
No. The reason of all nationalizations is not that anyone think those companies would be more profitable under state control.

No. It is that the state wants to control them, for different reasons. Sometimes in order to provide more jobs.

And let us hope that Chavez will give some compensation to the stock owners in those companies being nationalized now.

/track_snake
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#44
track,

That's an ephemeral ghost you're chasing there. A vapor. Socialism destroys wealth,always. The experiment of the 20th century leaves no room to think otherwise.
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#45
What is it with these people?

Track_Snake, you REALLY NEED to read Dr Frederick von Hayek's The Road To Serfdom. I'm not kidding you here. He wrote it a long time ago, and it is a brilliant work, exposing Socialism's Many, Many faults. It is FREE on the interned. Or you can purchase a copy from Amazon cheap, there are that many copies floating around.

Here is the condensed version. For G-d's sake, read it Man!

What is wrong with you People?! Are you Really That Stupid? Are you so confused that you actually think that wishy washy idealism beats reality? Jesus!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#46
Nationalization is not theft, particularly in those societies where law and precedent has long established the principle that mineral wealth is the property of the State and can be exploited solely with its permission! To some degree such principles exist within US law specially in the Western states where all derive their mining laws from old Spanish principles (hence the dichotomy between surface ownership and mineral rights). In fact, as far as Venezuela is concerned, privatization of the oil industry was the historical exception, since original exploitation was through a state company, PDVSA! For years, the large oil corporations did not locate a single refinery on Venezuelan soil but built the facilities in the Netherland Antilles and Trinidad because they could shelter under a different legal system.

In the past, most of the controversies over nationalization and compensation stemmed from the claim of the oil companies that they owned the unextracted petroleum and should be compensated for "lost profits"! The idea that they should only receive compensation in terms of depreciated infrastructure was anathema. However, in Venezuela, all oil exploitation is on the basis of government contract. None of the multinationals concerned own the petroleum in question but are simply venture capitalists in mutual agreements with PDVSA in limited joint ventures in specified areas. Chavez would not be "nationalizing" the oil industry--that event took place long ago--but is engaged in a very calculated game at extracting maximum national profits from foreign capital. Foreign oil companies are accustomed to operating in hostile fiscal environments such as Russia, Nigeria and Ecuador, making ventures in Venezuela a typical investment paradigm. Generally, the soaring costs of operating in a country highly sensitive to foreign companies are dwarfed by the potential short-term windfall profits. Considering this, the mutual economic gain in oil relations between the U.S. and Venezuela will most likely prevail over any dramatic political petro-posturing.

One should also note that under Venezuelan law, petroleum and natural gas are two different resources and exploitable under separate contractual obligations. Thus, to begin a rant over "nationalization" as theft is quite a misdirection in terms of Venezuela particularly in view of this fact. Venezuela currently has bilateral investment agreements in force for the promotion and protection of investment with the following countries: Argentina, Barbados, Canada, Chile, Costa Rica, Cuba, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, Germany, Lithuania, Netherlands, Paraguay, Peru, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and Uruguay. France and Belgium have signed agreements that are still awaiting legislative approval. No agreement exists with the United States.
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#47
^
Very interesting comment, thanks.
It's refreshing to read something well-informed.

Palladin Wrote:Stroll,

Nationalizing is theft. You're discussing private property here. If it's wrong to steal,it is wrong to steal.
Actually, I just pointed out that the Telephone company was a national one before, which was sold off by a corrupt polititian contrary to the mandate by the electorate. So, who has been doing the stealing here? S1

And it's not a question of who can run industries more successfully and efficiently, but who stands to profit from the operation.
Venezuelan resources and services are not there for international or US corporations to cream off the profits -this is corporate imperialism- , they should stay in Venezuela and benefit the country - according to Chavez and a version of socialism which is becoming more and more popular throughout South-America.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
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#48
A clarification is required here:

"And it's not a question of who can run industries more successfully and efficiently, but who stands to profit from the operation. Venezuelan resources and services are not there for international or US corporations to cream off the profits -this is corporate imperialism- , they should stay in Venezuela and benefit the country - according to Chavez and a version of socialism which is becoming more and more popular throughout South-America."

Actually, we must keep a historical perspective with regard to investment, national development, and legal constructs peculiar to Latin America before we even enter connotations over corporations and socialism. need I remind anyone over the recent American hub-bub over Dubai Ports?

In many instances, entities such as telephone companies and railways (all essentially public services) began their business operations as government concessions; hence from the beginning were participatory ventures between state and capital premised upon the generation of mutual benefit. They were not a cession of state jurisdiction but instead a granting of private autonomy in development so as to improve the general social order. I've already attended to the official attitude as to natural resources. In a way it would be erroneous to view much of the impetus by the state over greater control in these areas as a product of "socialism", since much actually stems from the traditional Spanish laws of the colonial era as well as strong sympathy with what economists have long labeled "just price theory". All of these realities rooted in history require recognition before a discussion of this topic can receive proper depth. We can see a part of this phenomenon in the "Indigenista" movements and their call for social justice, where in actuality the Amerind populations are seeking the restoration of a political autonomy they enjoyed under the old Spanish colonial government. Hence, many of the sentiments receiving expression today have little to do with either socialism or investment capital but are projections of older traditions.

Yet, let us look at a "lawyer's" take on privatization:

http://www.lectlaw.com/filesh/il-2.htm

And then discuss the possibilities of why, in the instance of Venezuela, the discussions on CANTV carries more than meets the eye.

http://www.budde.com.au/reports/Category....html?r=51

Yet, the over-riding fundamental fact remains: development stems from participatory activities between the state and private capital, with the latter receiving sufferance in consequence not to the extraction of profits but by the expansion of general services.
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#49
John L Wrote:What is it with these people?

Track_Snake, you REALLY NEED to read Dr Frederick von Hayek's The Road To Serfdom. I'm not kidding you here. He wrote it a long time ago, and it is a brilliant work, exposing Socialism's Many, Many faults. It is FREE on the interned. Or you can purchase a copy from Amazon cheap, there are that many copies floating around.

Here is the condensed version. For G-d's sake, read it Man!

What is wrong with you People?! Are you Really That Stupid? Are you so confused that you actually think that wishy washy idealism beats reality? Jesus!
---------------------------
OK, I will read that.

But try to understand me. I am not a socialist. But I understand those many young people who are attracted by socialism.

/track_snake
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#50
track_snake Wrote:.

But try to understand me. I am not a socialist. But I understand those many young people who are attracted by socialism.

/track_snake

They all need to be educated. I can place my neck under a guillotine enough times, and chances are that I will not lose my head. But all it takes is one time.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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