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South Korea and China
#1
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wire...s-39745001

South Korea is another country which is complaining about illegal fishing of Chinese boats.

However North Korea is nearby and the matter is much more complicated.

Quote:South Korea Sends Military Boats to Repel Chinese Fishermen
SEOUL, South Korea — Jun 10, 2016, 8:49 AM ET

South Korea sent military vessels to repel Chinese fishing boats that were illegally harvesting prized blue crabs near the disputed sea boundary between the Koreas before the fishermen retreated Friday, South Korean officials said.

Four naval and marine boats entered neutral waters around South Korea's Ganghwa island to chase away about 10 Chinese boats, which by afternoon had escaped into North Korea-controlled waters, said a Defense Ministry official who didn't want to be named, citing office rules.

The operation was approved by the United Nations Command that governs the zone where fishing activity is prohibited.
Depending on weather and water conditions, the operation will resume Saturday and continue until the Chinese boats withdraw further, the Defense Ministry official said. The South Korean military and maritime police personnel who carried out the mission were accompanied by translators and two monitors from United Nations Command.

"United Nations Command takes its responsibility to maintain the armistice very seriously. We had a responsibility to act and we are doing that," Gen. Vincent Brooks, the U.S. commander of the United Nations Command, said in a statement on the decision to authorize the operation.

The governments of China and North Korea were notified before the operation started and the Chinese boats were warned in English and Chinese, said the Defense Ministry official, who didn't provide further details about the operation.
Days earlier, South Korean fishermen towed away two Chinese fishing boats catching crabs south of the sea boundary and handed them over to local South Korean authorities. North Korea said after that incident that South Korean fishing and naval vessels had invaded their territory.

Chinese fishing boats have been going farther afield to feed growing domestic demand for seafood as catches have decreased in waters close to China's shores. Seoul has called for Beijing to employ tougher measures against Chinese boats illegally fishing in South Korea-controlled waters, which has caused bad feelings between the neighbors.

South Korean authorities seized about 600 Chinese ships last year for illegal fishing and more than 100 this year as of May, most from waters off the western coast of South Korea, according to the Ministry of Oceans and Fisheries.

China expressed anger in 2014 when a South Korean coast guardsman shot and killed a Chinese boat captain who had violently resisted the inspection of his ship for suspected illegal fishing. In 2011, a South Korean coast guard officer was killed in a clash with Chinese fishermen in South Korean waters.

The western waters off the Korean Peninsula have also seen violent clashes between the Koreas because Pyongyang doesn't recognize the sea boundary unilaterally drawn by the American-led U.N. command at the end of the 1950-53 Korean War.

The countries have fought three bloody naval skirmishes in the area since 1999, and last month North Korea threatened to fire at South Korean warships if they entered its waters, after the South's navy fired warning shots to chase away two North Korean ships that crossed the boundary.
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#2
They had better be extra careful when trying to aggregate the ROKs.  ROK has the largest ship building industry in the world, and it is nothing for them to commit to building a substantial navy, if they decide to do so.   ROKs will not put up with that crap for very long.  

Further, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it internationally legal to use "pursuit" of law breakers, even outside of the area in question?  In other words, ROK can chase and capture Chinese law breakers and be perfectly within the law.  

Koreans are tough customers to cross.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#3
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160610000709

This illegal fishing by Chinese boats is now also out in the Korean news.

Quote:Seoul, UNC crack down illegal Chinese fishing near inter-Korea borders

Published : 2016-06-10 16:33
Updated : 2016-06-10 16:33

South Korea and the United Nations command on Friday deployed a team of military and police officials in neutral waters around the Han River estuary to clamp down on illegal fishing by Chinese boats, the Defense Ministry said.

It is the first time since the 1950-53 Korean War ended in an armistice that the authorities of either Koreas have entered the river mouth for a military operation.

A military police team carries out an operation to clamp down on illegal Chinese fishing at the neutral waters around Han River estuary on Friday. (Joint Chiefs of Staff)

The area extended from the Military Demarcation Line to the Northern Limit Line -- effectively the land and maritime borders between the Koreas -- is considered neutral waters. Any military or civil ships wishing to enter the area must be registered with the military armistice commissions of either South or North Korea, according to the armistice agreement.

According to the ministry, a military police team of no more than 24 people and four speed boats will be deployed in the area to deter boats conducting illegal fishing. Officials say there have been 520 cases of illegal fishing as of May in this year alone.

The Ministry of Maritime Affairs and Fisheries announced earlier in the day that the country’s crab catch as of April plunged 68.5 percent on-year to 664 tons. Local fishermen has claimed that this was largely due to sharp increase in illegal fishing.

“The South Korean government has consistently pursued diplomatic efforts to curb illegal fishing. ... But the continuous illegal fishing made us realize the limits of diplomatic efforts,” said a government official.

Officials said their first operation on Friday was able to successfully drive away 10 Chinese fishing boats, which receded to the North side after the military police issued a warning. The team is slated to resume the operation on Saturday.

The team consists of military and coast guard personnel, along with translators and members of the UNC commission.

The U.N. command has notified China and North Korea on Wednesday of such operations. Officials said it was particularly important to notify the North to prevent accidental military conflicts, in light of the South Korean military personnel operating in waters that had not been entered for more than half a century.

The South Korean military said the North‘s military did not show any significant reaction while the operation was carried out.

UNC Commander Gen. Vincent Brooks approved the operation on Thursday, saying “United Nations Command takes its responsibility to maintain the Armistice very seriously. We had a responsibility to act and we are doing that."
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#4
(06-10-2016, 09:48 AM)John L Wrote: They had better be extra careful when trying to aggregate the ROKs...

The question is what is South Korean sea territory, what is North Korean sea territory and what is Chinese sea territory.

   

China is claiming sea territory from South Korea too - not so well-known, but they do. It is called Socotra Rock. -

The Socotra Rock is under South Korean control. For more information see the map.
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#5
As I mentioned in another thread, PRC will keep trying to push any and every envelope as long as nobody is willing to physically halt their activities. I'm betting that the ROKS will not put up with this like their weaker neighbors, including Japan.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#6




Weak Japan? Yes and no, still much stronger than others around China if you ask me - but the policy is in Japan to avoid accidents, and up to now, Japan was not really ready to control the sea border between Japan, China and Taiwan.

It is not the policy of Japan to fire on unarmed ships, they only try to block them or using water cannons etc.

These Chinese entering the Senkaku Islands in 2012 but these people who entered were all arrested on the island later on.

Only ships of the Japanese Coast Guard so far are around this area, no Japanese Navy, but from now on they will be much better informed what is coming. They often arrived late due to missing information.

With the new radar station on Yonaguni Island - a not disputed island - it will be much easier to intercept ships like these ones in 2012.

The situation is quite different in South Korea. This little country is very much closer to China and of course to North Korea.
South Korea reaction must be different therefore from the Japanese reaction when facing Chinese or North Korean boats.

These Senkaku Islands are far away from the 4 main islands of Japan, even far from Okinawa.





Sometimes smoke bombs are used, etc.  In future for sure, the Japanese Coast Guard will earlier know, when ships are coming.

It is already many years ago, that the Japanese Coast Guard fired on a North Korean ship in self defense, the damages of the Japanese Coast Guard ship can be clearly seen watching this video.



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#7
You might ask, what might be the next step for the Japanese Coast Guard (and not for the Japanese Navy)

As far as I know 2 ships are operating, 3 more ships are planned and 1 is under construction - they are fairly large, almost 500ft. long.
Japan needs some more large Coast Guard ships (called Shikishima Class) to face Chinese intruders still far off Okinawa.

Now Japan has only 2 of them in operation, and 4 more are considered to be delivered to the Japanese Coast Guard in future.






   

The picture and video show the PLH32, which is fully operating since December 2013.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ja...icopter.29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikishima..._%28PLH%29

With these large ships it will be possible to block illegal ships from China to enter Japanese Sea territory for the Japanese Coast Guard, I guess - and this without using the Japanese Navy.

Most important is however information where such intruders might move on, this will be easy from now on as the new radar station in Yonaguni is full in operation since Mai 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonaguni

To answer to your statement, all in all, Japan is not so weak as you might think.
Japanese Coast Guard has more material and personnel than any other Coastguard around China.

The Japanese Coast Guard has about 12.000 personnel, 450 ships and about 70 helicopters and small airplanes, not such a small organization.

What do you think about it, JohnL?
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#8
I think they had better start adding on to what they already have, because they just may need it soon.

Further, someone needs to start kicking the Filipinos in the rear end, in order to get them started.

Like it or not, the US is about to begin a slow withdrawal from a leadership role, due to absolutely insane, and irresponsible spending.  We're Broke!, and its slowly beginning to dawn on even the politicians in DC, if you can believe that.  Gah

Besides, we cannot keep leading around the world, and keep the Palladins of this world, including myself, from having morality conniptions.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#9
If USA is broken, many countries want to be broken too.
However I agree, USA cannot always take care of all issues regarding China and the Western Pacific area.

I do not exactly know about South Korea, but here in Japan we have the Japanese Coast Guard (see above) not such a small organization, and we have also the Japanese Navy, which has about 150+ ships and about 350+ aircrafts and helicopters.

About additional supply of ships, there is constantly construction of new ships going on for the Navy and the Coast Guard to keep them able to response to Chinese intruders.

Also the new military radar is now fully operation on Yonaguni Island, Navy and Coast Guard are now much better and much earlier informed about ships crossing the Chinese/Japanese sea border.

All in all Japan is aware about the situation facing China and is working on it.

-----

About Philippines, you cannot trust this corrupt government of an impoverished nation and same is true with Vietnam. They cannot expect to receive military supply for free to prevent Chinese ships to enter their sea territory for poaching and creating artifical islands as outposts.

What we can do from Japan and also from South Korea is to transfer some old ships and otherwise military supply which is outdated and is not required anymore - more or less call it a 'gift'.

-------

http://www.forbes.com/sites/anderscorr/2...2d7fd17b32

   

Maybe interesting for reading, but I do not agree with the author, that USA should take care of all these issues, and the question who pays for that is a valid question.

What Philippines really need urgently are some old big ships which can be used to block Chinese ships.

We have to consider that China is quite far away, but to Philippines Luzon area (Subic etc.) its only 150 miles or so...

China cannot send ships for fishing (=poaching) and construction (=illegal construction) up to 1200 miles away, when they are consequently blocked by ships of other nations nearby.

See this picture - a 90 ft wooden boat against a Chinese Coast Guard ship - totally hopeless to move on except in very shallow waters.
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#10
By "Broke" I am referring to the fact that we are deeply in debt, debt of our own making. If other countries want to be almost twenty trillion dollars in debt, I feel sorry for them.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#11
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asi...l#comments

Full article, see link above.

It's ridiculous, South Korea is a tiny country, has to import food as well because of 50 million people, and still Chinese fishing boats are entering and taking out what they can find within South Korean non-disputed small ocean territory.

   


Quote:Asia & Pacific
3 Chinese fishermen dead after clash with SKorea coast guard

In this Thursday, Sept. 29, 2016 photo provided by the South Korean Mokpo Coast Guard, a Chinese fishing boat catches fires during an inspection by the South Korean coast guard in the water off Hong Island, South Korea. South Korea’s coast guard said three Chinese fishermen have been found dead when a fire broke out on their boat after the coast guard fired a flashbang grenade at the vessel to stop it. (South Korean Mokpo Coast Guard via AP) (Associated Press)
By Hyung-Jin Kim | AP September 30 at 2:22 AM

SEOUL, South Korea — Three Chinese fishermen likely died from inhaling toxic fumes when a fire erupted after South Korean coast guard officers threw “flashbang” grenades into the fishing boat, officials said Friday.

The latest in a series of violent clashes between South Korea’s coast guard and Chinese fishing boats venturing farther from their increasingly barren home waters happened Thursday when a South Korean coast guard vessel tried to stop the Chinese boat from suspected illegal fishing about 70 kilometers (43 miles) from an island off South Korea’s southwestern coast.

-----

Chinese fishing boats have been going farther afield to feed growing domestic demand for seafood as catches have decreased in waters close to China’s shores.
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#12
This is not going to stop, of course. And expect it to get worse, as PRC faces more pressure from within, against its dictatorial government. The more pressure it gets from within, the more the need to gin up patriotism to counter the anti-government sentiment.

As I have come to believe and have put out here, super large countries will be falling apart in this century, because of the need to downsize and promote more input from its citizenry. PRC is no exception to this, and the bigger they are, the harder they will fall.

The IT revolution is the main cause of this pressure. Almost everyone has a smart phone, and access to the internet. No more Tiananmen Square, where the protests are put down, and pictures come out later. Now all this will be shown in 'real time' and the world will be able to put immense pressure on PRC to clean up its act. And the more they will entrench, setting up a major confrontation with its citizenry. The question is 'when' and 'how much pressure'.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#13
(09-30-2016, 09:34 AM)John L Wrote: ...The IT revolution is the main cause of this pressure.  Almost everyone has a smart phone, and access to the internet.  No more Tiananmen Square, where the protests are put down, and pictures come out later.  Now all this will be shown in 'real time' and the world will be able to put immense pressure on PRC to clean up its act.  And the more they will entrench, setting up a major confrontation with its citizenry.  The question is 'when' and 'how much pressure'.

One thing to consider is that China has their social media strongly regulated, and have control of all the servers. Some of the best computer engineers we have trained went straight back to the PRC. Their hackers are top notch, and all the hardware is crafted to authoritarian specifications. China has always been insular with no concern over the rest of the world... a nation of navel gazers. Iphones and tablets may be ubiquitous, but if there is a Great Wall of China around all those electronic gadgets, China may stave off globalism longer than anyone else.

What needs to happen is satellite communication connecting the Chinese, so they can get past the government censors. Since China is where much of these electronics are made, the whole thing could turn quite ironic.
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#14
(09-30-2016, 12:12 PM)WmLambert Wrote:
(09-30-2016, 09:34 AM)John L Wrote: ...The IT revolution is the main cause of this pressure.  Almost everyone has a smart phone, and access to the internet.  No more Tiananmen Square, where the protests are put down, and pictures come out later.  Now all this will be shown in 'real time' and the world will be able to put immense pressure on PRC to clean up its act.  And the more they will entrench, setting up a major confrontation with its citizenry.  The question is 'when' and 'how much pressure'.

One thing to consider is that China has their social media strongly regulated, and have control of all the servers. Some of the best computer engineers we have trained went straight back to the PRC. Their hackers are top notch, and all the hardware is crafted to authoritarian specifications. China has always been insular with no concern over the rest of the world... a nation of navel gazers. Iphones and tablets may be ubiquitous, but if there is a Great Wall of China around all those electronic gadgets, China may stave off globalism longer than anyone else.

What needs to happen is satellite communication connecting the Chinese, so they can get past the government censors. Since China is where much of these electronics are made, the whole thing could turn quite ironic.

So, you are saying that PRC has total control over ALL its computer citizen's computers?  And you are saying that it doesn't leak, with thousands able to skirt around the all powerful State?  Really?!  Spiteful
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#15
China is for the first era in my life internationally aggressive. It is not going to be fun to find out who's the big boy in Asia. With their testosterone demographics and huge numbers, it's going to be hard for them not to force a fight out there if there is physical violence to much extent.

I'm wondering how their navy stacks up with the US and Japan combined? Cause I'm starting to think confrontation is likely in the next decade.

Combine this with their role in western manufacturing. What IS NOT made there and brought to Europe and North America except aircraft and autos? I don't know that we create our own steel anymore.

Something for the "more money always is god" mentality to consider.

Long term, we may have effectively sold out our independence of action to the wealthiest people in our societies so they could make more money while we became dependent on a huge people group that is deciding we suck. Globalism - schmobilism.

Khruschev may turn out to have been prescient after all, just failed to note the greater weakness of his own ideas.
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#16
(09-30-2016, 05:54 PM)Palladin Wrote: China is for the first era in my life internationally aggressive. It is not going to be fun to find out who's the big boy in Asia. With their testosterone demographics and huge numbers, it's going to be hard for them not to force a fight out there if there is physical violence to much extent.

 I'm wondering how their navy stacks up with the US and Japan combined? Cause I'm starting to think confrontation is likely in the next decade.

Combine this with their role in western manufacturing. What IS NOT made there and brought to Europe and North America except aircraft and autos? I don't know that we create our own steel anymore.

Something for the "more money always is god" mentality to consider.

Long term, we may have effectively sold out our independence of action to the wealthiest people in our societies so they could make more money while we became dependent on a huge people group that is deciding we suck. Globalism - schmobilism.

Khruschev may turn out to have been prescient after all, just failed to note the greater weakness of his own ideas.

China has lots of expendable males thanks to its one-child policy.
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#17
As to whether China can successfully wall off all electronics; probably not. But, if anyone can, it would be them. Like I said, there would need to be sat-coms to do it, because they already do a good job of walling off their nation-wide usage of the internet. I've always contended that the world is shrinking. Knowledge travels at the speed of light, and a friend in Asia is as close as a friend next door. We were once isolated because of our oceans, but now we can travel and communicate in the blink of an eye.

China has always defied all the rules, though. They recently decided that they could never win a military war with the USA and looked to asymmetrical warfare. However, once they saw the USA slipping into dotage, they started rebuilding their navy.
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#18
(10-01-2016, 01:50 PM)WmLambert Wrote: As to whether China can successfully wall off all electronics; probably not. But, if anyone can, it would be them. Like I said, there would need to be sat-coms to do it, because they already do a good job of walling off their nation-wide usage of the internet. I've always contended that the world is shrinking. Knowledge travels at the speed of light, and a friend in Asia is as close as a friend next door. We were once isolated because of our oceans, but now we can travel and communicate in the blink of an eye.

China has always defied all the rules, though. They recently decided that they could never win a military war with the USA and looked to asymmetrical warfare. However, once they saw the USA slipping into dotage, they started rebuilding their navy.

Bill, any Chinese who don't know how to bypass the Great Firewall of China, are either drunk, or in the morgue.  I know that's an exaggeration but if PRC authorities think it is remotely possible to put a stop to their slaves.......opps Citizenry from bypassing their bureaucratic crap is in La-La Land.  Here's a tiny example of what I mean:

How To Bypass The Great Firewall of China

How to get past China's Great Firewall and reach blocked sites?  Forum closed at this time.

INTERNET How To Quickly Check If Your Site Is Visible Behind The Great Firewall Of China

I did a search for all this by using different wording and the number of ways to get around the "Great Firewall" as it is called, are legion.  AND as soon at the Chinese authorities figure a way to block one of them, another crops up.  

Hey, they also had a campaign to remove ALL satellite dishes in China. But resourceful Chinese have figured out how to build openings in buildings and hide the dish behind transparent barriers that look like the outside.  In other words they can also camouflage these dishes, and the authorities never know it.  

There are thousands of ways to run rings around the slave owners, and the Chinese citizenry are up to speed on how to defeat them.  Don't kid yourself on this. S22
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#19
Yes, you are correct that the wall can be broached - but it is not easy for the great masses of victims to do so. Those who are able to, don't need that input. They must already know things, if they are willing to jeopardize everything to bypass national security.

It is always the great masses that must be reached. As long as the government gives them an Intranet that is controlled, why should a farmer need more?

You once said in another post that a farmer with experience has more wisdom than an Ivy League elitist. That farmer may know contour plowing works better than farming on a slope, but if the words that explain foreign entanglements never get to him, his opinions on that subject have no wisdom. If he thinks he is wise, he just becomes a useful idiot for the government's agenda.
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#20
(10-03-2016, 02:27 PM)WmLambert Wrote: Yes, you are correct that the wall can be broached - but it is not easy for the great masses of victims to do so. Those who are able to, don't need that input. They must already know things, if they are willing to jeopardize everything to bypass national security.

It is always the great masses that must be reached. As long as the government gives them an Intranet that is controlled, why should a farmer need more?

You once said in another post that a farmer with experience has more wisdom than an Ivy League elitist. That farmer may know contour plowing works better than farming on a slope, but if the words that explain foreign entanglements never get to him, his opinions on that subject have no wisdom. If he thinks he is wise, he just becomes a useful idiot for the government's agenda.

Bill, understanding the Asiatic mind(its a cultural thing) is not easy, especially if you are from the West.  Fortunately, I have lived in both Japan and Korea.  I love the Korean People, because they have been so misused, and abused, for so long that they have developed a "kick ass" mentality.   And they make the world's greatest thieves too. S13

Orientals are not like Westerners.  If a Westerner is not allowed to do a thing, the majority of them will bitch and moan, and usually go along with it all, to one extent or the other.  If an Asian is not allowed to do a thing, the majority of them will silently observe the restrictions, and not raise hell, because in their culture, such things can get one arrested, imprisoned, and even worse.  Or if you are Japanese especially, they can lose face.  Soo, they remain silent and then go about their business doing what they want to do.  

You are looking at things from your own Western perspective.  Most Chinese, who have computers and access to the internet, secretly do not take kindly to their restrictions. and 99% of them learn very quickly where to go, who to see, and what to acquire in order to circumvent these restrictions.  It is not just a few Chinese, who are doing this, but a Huge percentage of them.  I'm serious here.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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