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The Iran-Saudi Conflict
#1
Are we going to an Iran/Saudi war?

This thing is long due.
(And everybody will be happy because oil will rise again above $100.)

Also, by complaining of the attack on their embassy, Iran acknowledges indirectly their support for the Houtis insurgents in Yemen. Something they denied so far.
Either the embassy was not attacked and Iran acknowledges, or it was attacked and then it's Saudis Arabia who acknowledges this.

In any case, tension is mounting and all the cultural compoments are set for a suddenly brutal clash between these two after decades of hypocritical smilings and ali-baba diplomacy.

reuters Wrote:Relations between Iran and Saudi Arabia deteriorated even further on Thursday as Tehran severed all commercial ties with Riyadh and accused Saudi jets of attacking its embassy in Yemen's capital.

A row has been raging for days between Shi'ite Muslim power Iran and the conservative Sunni kingdom since Saudi Arabia executed cleric Nimr al-Nimr, an opponent of the ruling dynasty who demanded greater rights for the Shi'ite minority.

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Sudan, Djibouti and Somalia have all broken off diplomatic ties with Iran this week, the United Arab Emirates downgraded its relations and Kuwait, Qatar and Comoros recalled their envoys after the Saudi embassy in Tehran was stormed by protesters following the execution of Nimr

.....

Besides import ban, the Iranian cabinet also reaffirmed a ban on pilgrims traveling to Mecca for Umrah haj.

[Image: UMRAH-HAJJ-300x225.jpg]
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#2
Well, first off they are not physically adjacent to each other. That makes an invasion problematic, except for an air war.

If they do declare war, how do you think it will be prosecuted?
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#3
I think they are at war already and have been for a while in Bahrain, Syria and Yemen. The Saudis had to send a large troop contingent to Bahrain recently to avoid the majority Shiites overthrowing that crowd, remember?

My son was there and guess whose face taxi drivers had on their mirrors? Sadr's.

Iran can as easily move arms from Iraq into Saudi Arabia as we could move stuff from Libya to Syria via Turkey.

I for one don't want another human to die for any reason we can avoid, but, if Saudi Arabia was dissolved it would be beneficial to humanity.

They are spreading their version of Islam with the cash of the west, ISIS is more crass, long term probably not as dangerous as they cause a reaction the Saudis don't.

You guys can worry about the west and the USA benefit working with these mass murdering neanderthals allows us, I don't want whatever benefit it gives me personally.
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#4
It won't be a war of invasions. I don't know what it will be. But Iran is using every shiite communities to extend their power, whereever it's possible.

If there is a regular armed conflict between the two, it will be very interresting if Turkey could participate. Then we have the complete trio.

Palladin Wrote:if Saudi Arabia was dissolved it would be beneficial to humanity.
I agree. But if Iran could be disolved it would be even better. IMO Iran is as responsible for M-E violences as ISIL/Saudi/Turkey, if not more.
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#5
Fred, most people will NOT be happy when oil prices rises back up to $100 a barrel. While bad news for people who speculate in petroleum stocks and futures, every other part of the economy is benefited by low gas prices, since it means energy for everything will cost less, so food, heating, fuel, clothing, all manufactured goods--everything affected by energy costs--will be cheaper. I for one am happy at $30 per barrel costs for oil! I like being able to fill my gas tank for $10-$15! And I was glad I was able to buy my mother a 19" Element HD color TV for $109 for Christmas.
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#6
Fred,

Iran is no danger to you and never has been. You're a victim of American PR. Iran does not fund Islamic Mosques that teach the trash Saudi Arabia teaches globally.

The height of Iranian power would be if they defeated the Sunnis to rule their region. Why do we care if they get to run Mecca and the neanderthal Saudis don't?

Saudi Arabia is effectively spreading the ISIS version of Islam with our cash flow and that is a danger to every human on earth.

Ron,

You like the cheap oil enough to help fund what is essentially an ISIS version of Islam globally? I love the self sacrificial mentality here.
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#7
(01-09-2016, 11:12 AM)Palladin Wrote: Fred,

Iran is no danger to you and never has been.

Just because Iran has not been a "Clear and Present Danger" to Europe in the past doesn't automatically mean they will not be in the future.

Consider, the Saudis are the "Reactionary" conservative Islamic force, and Iran is the "Radical" Islamic force. Which do you think offers the most potential danger for the future? And also consider that while the Saudis will acquire nuclear weapons, they will not be able to construct them. Iran, on the other hand, is making them, and will be able to offer one or more to such groups as Hezbollah. The Saudis, being reactionary, will hoard them for their own protection.

Can you discern the difference here?

Palladin Wrote:You're a victim of American PR.

Are you certain of this, or are you just letting your hatred for the Evil US prevail again, simply because it is less than perfect?

Palladin Wrote:Iran does not fund Islamic Mosques that teach the trash Saudi Arabia teaches globally.

Is it worth considering that maybe they aren't, because they have been rendered less than fully operational,................until now, thanks to MacDaddy?

Palladin Wrote:The height of Iranian power would be if they defeated the Sunnis to rule their region. Why do we care if they get to run Mecca and the neanderthal Saudis don't?

Saudi Arabia is effectively spreading the ISIS version of Islam with our cash flow and that is a danger to every human on earth.

Both are branches of the same autocratic excuse for a religion. Like Fred, I despise ALL of their sects, and wish for them to be gone. Somehow I thought you felt, and perhaps thought, the same way. Was I wrong in this presumption?



Palladin, totally overlooking the basic rule of human nature, and economic theory, Wrote:Ron,

You like the cheap oil enough to help fund what is essentially an ISIS version of Islam globally? I love the self sacrificial mentality here.

I don't know about you since your new found Religious epiphany, but "self-interest" is THE driving force among humans and other animals on the planet. The importance goes from 1)Individual self-interest, to 2) Family's self-interest, to 3)group/tribal self-interest. Its been that way for Lord knows when. Unlike Ron, I believe it to have been around for countless millions of years, and it is in our genetic code. So why are you trying to take the one driving force, which has made us successful, and denigrate it?

I suspect there is more here than just this new found religion. There is also a fundamental "unionist" belief that the group takes precedence over the individual. Its called Collective bargaining. And make no mistake, that is the underlying principle of Unions, and precisely why the Communists went after them at the very first. It was easier to capture them, because they followed the same intellectual avenue. Are you STILL unable to grasp this?

Ron is just doing what even you do, in spite of your disdain for Free Enterprise, and individual choice here. Dr. Walter E. Williams would tear you a new one if you tried that on him.

I would produce some of his astute essays if I actually believed you would bother reading them. I sincerely hope and pray that you manage to temper your radical religious drive that you have picked up in the last couple of years. It is ultimately self-destructive, because it is as myopic as the very Saudis you claim to hate.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#8
John,

Self interest is the exact opposite of what our calling is. Just a reminder here John, we do not worship Allah. You said you studied the bible, you cannot have missed the single most significant calling is self sacrificial love, right?

How does allying with an ISIS type state to make yourself wealthier fit in that theology?

You're right on normal animals and men thinking that's all that is important, Christians have a higher calling .

The Iran comments could be stated about any group on earth. We have evidence about our friends the Saudis, we don't need to speculate like you do with Iran.

Iran has never tried to export a version of Islam like the Saudis, Christians and Jews live in Iran and have since the times of Christ, both would be executed in Saudi Arabia by crucifixion.

We know nothing at all about Iran, just parrot the stupidity you do like with your previous "Iran wants a holocaust" nonsense. Jews have lived in Iran for 3000 years now and you make insanely ignorant statements like that.

The only problem Iran presents us is they don't bow the knee to the almighty American hegemony in their region. That's the only reason we opposed Saddam, it's why we oppose Syria and Iran and it's easy to see. We'll oppose Israel or Turkey if they decide not to kiss this ass,too.
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#9
Ron By "everybody will be happy" I meant those who are pulling the threads, those who rule overthere and overhere too.

If I were them, I would fake a conflict just to sell my oil better.



Palladin Wrote:Iran is no danger to you and never has been. You're a victim of American PR.
I never said it was a danger to us, I said it was a danger to the region. And they are.

Palladin Wrote:Iran does not fund Islamic Mosques that teach the trash Saudi Arabia teaches globally.
After the Paris attacks, launched from Belgium, we were stunned to learn that 50 years ago King Baudoin made a pact with the Saudis to let them open mosqes, fund them and teach the Wahhabi Islam to Belgian muslims. King Bauduin was a honnest monarch but he was also a radical puritanic catholic. If you look at his wife's face, it's obvious that they never had sex together. it's no wonder he agreed with the puritanic form of Islam too.

The Saudis were smart to keep good diplomatic ties with the West and have more control than Iranians on our muslims.
Now it's the fault of the Iranian to have declared war on the Great Satan and on the West instead of doing the same as the Saudis were doing.

It doesn't mean their Islam is less a trash dump. The same shit exactely.

Palladin Wrote:The height of Iranian power would be if they defeated the Sunnis to rule their region. Why do we care if they get to run Mecca and the neanderthal Saudis don't?
Because we can't let a single power to rule over so much oil resources.
We don't give a damn if they take Mecca or Medina, but we can't let them take the oil fields. We fought Saddam for this reason. Everybody in the M-E fights for this reason. The war in Syria is about pipeline route. Still oil related.

Tomorrow I'm going to read what John replied to you.
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#10
(01-09-2016, 05:35 PM)Palladin Wrote: John,

Self interest is the exact opposite of what our calling is. Just a reminder here John, we do not worship Allah. You said you studied the bible, you cannot have missed the single most significant calling is self sacrificial love, right?Turkey if they decide not to kiss this ass,too.

As usual, you only half get it. Idealism is one thing, but practicality takes precedence. In other words, "How can you take care of others if you can't take care of yourself?"

But since you are Sooooo pious, then why haven't you quit your job, given up your home and wealth, and traveled to Africa, or some other Third World country in order to perform all that "self sacrificial love"?

As even you will agree, Jesus led through example, correct? So when you manage to achieve all this, then come back here and school me on this higher calling. in which you set yourself out as much higher than the rest of us. Until then I'll just view all this pontification as perhaps a tad bit hypocritical. Spiteful
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#11
Palladin, how does paying less for oil constitute supporting ISIS? Oil prices are half of what they were a year ago because of increased American production thanks to things like fracking.

Iran is the country that kidnapped and held prisoner all our diplomatic personnel in Tehran during the Carter administration. By international law that constituted an act of war. Technically we are still at war with Iran. That has never changed.

Iran currently funds terrorist groups that attack us and our allies. As Iran develops its nuclear weapons, it will undoubtedly give some of those weapons to terrorist groups. Iran has said publically and officially that it intends to attack Israel and America and all the West. So how retarded is it to claim that Iran is no danger to us?
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#12
(01-09-2016, 10:01 PM)Ron Lambert Wrote: Palladin, how does paying less for oil constitute supporting ISIS? Oil prices are half of what they were a year ago because of increased American production thanks to things like fracking.

Ron, I think it has to do with this belief that since we are not perfectly good, we are perfectly Evil. Kind of like an "Either you are all for it, or you are all against it." But I really believe that there is also this "protectionist" thinking that comes with his union upbringing. If we are importing cheaper things from overseas, then we are purposefully putting others out of work.

But to be honest with you, I really don't understand it all. That's why I really would rather be discussing all this Climate Change stuff. That way the religious morality thing isn't involved, and there is less chance of getting into a theological argument. Although all this "Environmentalism" worship thing just may be next up to bat. Shock
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#13
John,

It doesn't take any piety to be against paying for rape, anti Christian violence, cutting off folk's hands, crucifying some folks, denigrating half the human race, motivating the desert style of Islam these red neck Arabs preach and we help fund.

You and your self interested Uncle Sam religion. Enjoy that trash.


Ron,

We're allied with Saudi Arabia, they act very similar to ISIS. Just read about their legal code and read about their funding wahabbi Islam globally, they are the root cause of global terrorism intellectually and the US relationship advances that cause.

If you're OK with that, fine, that's between you and God.

I do not want to be involved with those people nor helping fund their way of life, which includes crucifying people, outlawing even the possession of a bible, etc.

I'd rather pay $10 dollars per gallon as opposed to assisting those type people. I'd rather live in a hollowed out log than have that on my record facing Christ.

Is our religion comfort, Uncle Sam or Christ? Are you positive you want to line up with John on this issue? This US patriotism you're involved in leads you to support trash just like this, think about that a while.

We have more responsibility than aggrandizing ourselves at the expense of other people. Think, don't emotionally react, you know what we're a bout involved evil, why support that?
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#14
Palladin, you would never make a good horticulturalist, or any other kind of specialist involved with selective breeding. When looking for a desired characteristic, you survey what is available and look for what seems to be closest to what you are looking for--at least a step closer. Then you propagate that, dispose of the rest, and survey all the resultant offspring, and again select whatever is most promising. No plant or animal breeder ever starts out disposing of anything that does not exactly fit the bill of whatever he is looking for. He would dispose of everything, and there would be no progress. It probably took hundreds of years to develop sweet almonds from bitter almonds (apricot pits). And it took over a thousand years to develop a blue rose. The key ingredient required in this kind of husbandry is patience!

So Saudi Arabia is demonstrably better in a whole host of significant ways than Iran. So we encourage Saudi Arabia, and weed out Iran. That may be only a first step--but we must be patient enough to take that first step. Then the next step. And so on, however long it takes.

Same with politics. The Republican Party has a lot of shortcomings, but it still is far better than the Democratic Party. So I say encourage the former, and do all we can to weed out Democrats. That's a first step, with more to come later. Within the Republican Party, the most encouraging thing is the Tea Party. So we should encourage the Tea Party, and weed out the regressive, collectivist-tending undesirables like John Boehner. Paul Ryan is definitely an improvement, but the next step will be finding someone better than he is, or electing Ted Cruz president.

This is how reality works in everything!

Blue Roses--the centuries long-sought for goal of plant breeders:
   
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#15
Ron,

Don't know about your blue roses, but, your preference for US patriotism when it leads you to prefer associations such as with Saudi Arabian Islam needs a re think.

Is there anything or anyone the USA might associate with that you would object to? I see wahabbi Islam is OK, what would bother you?
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#16
(01-10-2016, 06:00 PM)Ron Lambert Wrote: ...you survey what is available and look for what seems to be closest to what you are looking for...
I think Palladin may be positing that it is possible to ruin what you already have, by allowing weeds to grow in the garden. It is not just selecting the best seedling, but allso stopping the pests and diseases that threaten what is already there.

I agree with both of you. The nurturing of what is possible depends on more than imitating George Washington Carver, but in also imitating James Gordon Horsfall.
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#17
Ron Wrote:So Saudi Arabia is demonstrably better in a whole host of significant ways than Iran. So we encourage Saudi Arabia, and weed out Iran.

No Saudi Arabia is not in any way better to Iran. They may be worse even, moraly speaking. The only difference is that S-A doesn't have an official line ultra agressive against the US. And doesn't develop atomic bombs neither.

Also wrong: It's not the US who weeded ut Iran. It's Iran who weeded out the US. The West, in fact, would love to be friend with Iran and be able to bargain with S-A. But they can't because Iran is mysticaly against this idea.
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