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Ancient Pagan Religious Rituals
#1
In taking some OT theology courses, you have to study ANE pagan religious stuff because the Jewish authors of the OT text often used ANE pagan motifs to do a "pro YHWH/anti pagan gods" dialectic.

Some of the data you learn about these people is their gods taught them 4 uniform basic items:

1) cultivating drugs

2) Farming techniques

3) Metallurgy techniques

4) sexing up the ladies

There was a documentary on some recent Peruvian discoveries and these same 4 items were dominant in that religion as well.

My son in law's dad was surreptitiously given the shit in the article while on a mission in Peru several years ago and spent 1 year in a mental institution. If you hear of it in your community, expect suicides or murders. More things change, the more they remain the same.









http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...rooms.html
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#2
What is "ANE"?
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#3
Ancient Near East.

Encompasses the region from Egypt to modern day Iran east to west and Arabia to probably some of the Greek speaking regions northwards( Galatia,Cappadocia,etc) although I don't think Greece would be considered ANE.

It's what all theologians use to describe the overall biblical geography the ancient Jews knew of.

BTW, I was careful to use that area only for reference as I haven't studied ancient pagan religions outside that region.
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#4
By 'sh*t' you mean item 1 ... or the whole lot?

I'm reading The Mind in the Cave. If painting fantastic murals in the depths of the earth nearly 20,000 years ago qualifies as an ancient pagan religious ritual ... I guess I'm drawn in ... hope I don't end up in an institution. The author's thesis is that they were trying to rationalize the homo sapiens capacity to grasp the abstract ... essentially the link between dream states and hallucinations that allow something created in the mind to find it's way into the physical orld. The assumption is that they believed that cave and rock walls were 'membranes' between the physical world and the nether world. Shamans would seek visions and would recall them in drawings and engravings, trying to create a connection between the real and the spiritual worlds. Some of it seems a bit of a reach, but it's still fascinating. This was less about any of your four outlined elements than people trying to come to grips with the fact that their minds were capable of creating alternate realities that don't effectively exist. The same sort of stuff that allows things like innovation, the creation of new technology ... and art. The author is very hard on Neanderthals ... essentially equating them with animals that could dream ... but not 'imagine' ... or remember the twisted little bits of intuition that come from dreams ... abstract thoughts ... altered forms of consciousness, etc.. ... that they could only copy technology ... but were incapable of actual 'creating' it. Harsh. Particularly if it leads to extinction.

What if our capacity to become religious nut cakes is a side effect of the very thing that allowed our species to survive ... when others didn't?

[Image: lascaux+cave+paintings.jpg]
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#5
Dr. Lewis-Williams is a member of a small group of anthropologists, which goes by the name of Cognitive Archaeology. The group infers the mental state of paleolithic man, based on things such as the art you have pictured above. Generalities make sense, but getting into particulars is a bit of a stretch.

As for the Neanderthal part, I still find it interesting that so many continue to persist in relegating them to the back of the intellectual bus. Its called the "Out of Africa", or "Eve" theory. Its almost as though they are supposed to be an aberration within the chain of human development. And I disagree, being part of the Milford Walpoff school. We are discovering a lot of interesting artifacts belonging to Neanderthal, that question the old school of thought. Neanderthals weren't quite as primitive as once believed, judging by recent discoveries of their tool's sophistication.

Logically, it makes better sense to conclude that both Neanderthal and newer migrations simply managed to genetically merge together. Ain't strange sex great? Here's Dr. Wolpoff's model for Multi-regional continuity. And one other thing. All one has to do is just look at Wolpoff, and its not hard to see the obvious Neanderthal genes within him, which help make his thesis more believable. Things such as robust brow ridges, and sloping frontal forehead.

Here's a Youtube video of the Wolpoff position. The audio is a bit low, so you'll have to turn up the volume, or put on headphones.

Also, note the part dealing with homo erectus. I concluded years ago that Australian Aboriginies had to be modern homo erectus, and not a bunch of modern man replacing them. The evidence just keeps piling up. Once all this Neanderthal brouhaha is finally over, the next battle will be fought there. Dr. Wolpoff has been proven right all along.





Here's more evidence, showing that the "Out of Africa" theory is finally being proven wrong.



___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#6
Interesting. I'm curious what you think about the Jean Auel Clan of the Cave Bear novels. I know she researched and studied with the same scientists represented in the videos. Was the interbreeding in her books drawn from this research? Ayla was certainly the new breed and her Clan of Neanderthls who raised her were certainly different.
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#7
(10-02-2015, 11:16 AM)WmLambert Wrote: Interesting. I'm curious what you think about the Jean Auel Clan of the Cave Bear novels. I know she researched and studied with the same scientists represented in the videos. Was the interbreeding in her books drawn from this research? Ayla was certainly the new breed and her Clan of Neanderthls who raised her were certainly different.

Bill, I've never read any of her stories before, so I can't make an observation.

Back in the mid 70s, the word in the anthro field was that the next big issue was going to be the Neanderthals. And obviously this has been The Big issue for over the last forty years. And its still not over yet. But all this recent findings of Neanderthal DNA in practically all humans not in Africa, is going to pretty much seal all this "Out of Africa" theory, where supposedly modern humans spread out in one wave, and displaced all other hominids living elsewhere.

I well remember how the genetics field were supposed to be the top of the professional science market. If they made a pronouncement, the hand of the academic oracle had spoken. Well, we still use DNA testing, but it is now just part of the overall picture, where it should have been all along.

I've always agreed with Wolpoff, but since his successful fight against the "Out of Africa" crowd, I consider myself one of his intellectual disciples. Like I said before, Wolpoff is the perfect spokesman for the Neanderthal comeback. Let him grow a beard, dress in skins, and give him a spear, and you would swear that Neanderthals were still alive and well. S22

Being trained as I have, I am naturally on the lookout for different cranial feathers in people, in general. I see quite a few people having cranial morphology that certainly looks more primitive than what we are supposed to look like. These things are in our genes, because we all come from so many different groups from around the world. But mostly from in and around Europe, all the way to the Eurasia.

If you know what to look for cranially, you will notice a lot of different morphology in populations. And the biggest next thing in Physical anthropology, and archaeology is going to be the direct relationship of older, more archaic, homo Erectus and aboriginies of Australia, Borneo, and other islands around there. That subject is just sitting there, ready to rule the roost once the Neanderthal thing calms down.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#8
John,

I'm not completely certain what the "Out of Africa" thing is. In the book, Lewis-Williams uses rock and cave art in Africa, Europe and North America to draw his conclusions (which are basically that early people thought that the rocks and cave walls were a 'membrane' to the spirit world that they sought to breach with imagery ... [often 3D imagery! ... which is a bit astonishing]). He discounts Neanderthals by stating that there is very little of their DNA in modern humans ... I don't know how accurate that is. His treatment of them just struck me as rather cruel. His opinion of their demise is as I have stated is that they didn't have the right brain structures to harness abstraction. His opinion regarding DNA is that homo sapiens would have avoided interbreeding as they would have considered Neanderthals inferior (who wants an ugly slow kid?). He does acknowledge that anatomically modern people co-existed for about 10K years ... and apparently at least a few people didn't mind having ugly slow kids ... or at least their ancestors didn't. But the hard part for me is that he seems to cast them out of humanity on those grounds ... like I said ... that seems quite harsh.

Cognitive Archaeology is definitely the descriptor of his work. But he does a bit more than infer ... he builds what seems like a pretty decent case. It's a very interesting question that he seeks to answer ... why the heck would early man ... struggling with all sorts of looming disaster ... finding food and avoiding starvation ... avoiding predators ... and all sorts of dangers like fairly minor wounds that could go septic, disease, etc ... crawl a kilometer into a dark, unknown potentially predator filled (eg cave bears), generally dangerous (pits, pools, shafts, getting lost at a wrong turn, etc ...) caves to create great murals in the shadows? The Hall of the Bulls required scaffolding that was apparently found upon excavation ... this wasn't just some lone artistic nut job ... it had to have been a group effort. What he poses is a (complicated) stretch ... but at least it's an attempt at an answer.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#9
Yak,

The Ayahuasca hallucinogenic drug is what he was given surreptitiously, he almost went totally insane. That was "the shit" I alluded to, it was in the article above. It says several people report insanity and/or suicide after consuming that stuff.

Some ancient and modern pagans saw/see that hallucinogenic stuff as accessing the world of their gods and it appears some are still drawn to it.
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#10
(10-02-2015, 10:32 PM)Palladin Wrote: Yak,

The Ayahuasca hallucinogenic drug is what he was given surreptitiously, he almost went totally insane. That was "the shit" I alluded to, it was in the article above. It says several people report insanity and/or suicide after consuming that stuff.

Some ancient and modern pagans saw/see that hallucinogenic stuff as accessing the world of their gods and it appears some are still drawn to it.

That aspect is of "altered consciousness" definitely covered in the book discussed above. The author is also fairly explicit that the 'shaman' ... or anyone else who goes vision questing was supposed to be aware that what they were undertaking was very, very dangerous ... people that undertook it were prepared and understood the risks. Slipping that kind of 'sh*t' to someone 'surreptitiously' without any preparation, or context, or consent is tantamount to poisoning them. He's very lucky he survived. Tim Leary took many thousands of people down that road ... and many of them perished on it. Susan Sarandon ritually sent him on his way at Burning Man this year. They're both dumbasses. If Upper Paleolithic humans were around today that would certainly confirm that fact.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#11
Concerning the author's views, I doubt he was accurate on this one:

"The author is also fairly explicit that the 'shaman' ... or anyone else who goes vision questing was supposed to be aware that what they were undertaking was very, very dangerous ... people that undertook it were".

Typical modern secularist think.

IMO, the ancient shaman had access to real, animate contact with the gods of his pantheon. The bible teaches this, too. Only the idols were myths, the gods were very real, very powerful and still are and these hallucinogens gave the shaman greater access to them(bible warns not to do this BTW in Galatians 5:20 and Revelation 18:23, the word is pharmakeia and poorly translated sorcery too often).

The ancient shaman would have been in such an ecstatic mental status on this drug and convinced he was entering "heaven" from their view, to imagine he would think he needed to warn his peeps this could be dangerous is a modernist post enlightenment error.

In their view, the shaman could become a god as the Caesars could. More of the hallucinogenic experiences, more chances of it. Why would he warn his flock against that?

We see these drugs as dangerous, they saw them as opening up the heavenlies and accessing their gods so intimately. Read the article above, even today's shaman denies it is harmful, evidence is dick to them.
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#12
Palladin,

Again, people 15-20K years ago crawled over half a mile into peril filled caves to experience the same "spiritual flight" experiences as those who seek them with drugs. But the ancients weren't stupid. They had to know there were risks ... enormous risks. THOSE were selected people from their communities they understood and knew what they were undertaking. They weren't some idiot drug tourist, cult member or bored housewives exploring the latest fad. It's fairly easy to conceive the motivation of modern hipster drug twits. Not so easy to figure the motivation of someone living marginal subsistence ... in which they faced real danger every day of their ordinary lives and why they would do something that extraordinary ... and create such remarkably beautiful art in such a dark, remote and dangerous places.

I went back to your article ... even at least some of the purveyors apparently under stand the risks ... sort of ...
Quote:Frighteningly, the sellers say it would be 'unethical' to tell you how much is safe to take and how to prepare it.

I found your citation ....
Quote:Fabio Pedalino, the leader of the Ceu do Gamarra church in south-east Brazil, which is part of the Santo Daime doctrine, told MailOnline it was 'impossible' that ayahuasca could take anyone's life.

He said he had never heard of anyone dying after taking the drink. adding: 'Newborns drink it, older people over 90 drink it. I've never seen or heard of any problems.

Either he's blowing smoke or he's not considering all aspects. The LD50 of marijuana is extraordinarily high. Pot advocates like to use that fact make the same statement that it's 'impossible' to die from it or be harmed. But after legalization here in Colorado we've seen dozens of fatalities, injuries, fires, child and pet poisonings, etc.. Most of the mayhem is not from the drug itself but from the actions of the people using it. If you really want to start a flame war in the comments section of a pot article, suggest that people die this way. Pot heads are fiercely protective of their 'lifestyle' ... they become as angry, rabid and irrational as the political far left when the suggestion is made that it's dangerous in any way. They like to point out that alcohol is often more dangerous ... so what? ... it's ALL potentially dangerous. The shaman above may simply be reacting the same way in protecting his turf ... or it may be a cultural thing in which local people that are used to it don't have nearly as adverse consequences as amateur western vision questers. There was an episode in Sedona a few years ago in which a 'guru' conducted a trendy "sweat lodge" retreat that resulted in multiple fatalities. There weren't any drugs involved AFIK ... mostly dehydration, deliberately poor ventilation and general dumbassery.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#13
Palladin,
I'm getting toward the end of The Mind in the Cave and ayahuasca is mentioned ... apparently taken by an anthropologist named Michael Harner ... for 'research' ... his description involves tingling sensations.

"A hyper-exitation is felt within the body which produces a pleasant agitation in the epiderm"

But if you were given this stuff surreptitiously, it could easily be interpreted as a heart attack or bugs crawling under the skin. Context probably has a lot to do with the experience. But given a high enough dose of the stuff (and who knows what that threshold is?), that clinical detachment most likely gives way to madness.

I looked up Harner's bio and he probably pigeon holes into your description of "Typical modern secularist think". He founded "The Foundation for Shamanic Studies" and the "New Age practice of Core Shamanism" ... if you're looking for a culprit, he sounds a bit of a likely suspect. But at 86 I doubt that he's doing much 'tripping' these days. Foundations and new age workshops are probably less of a hazard than when such things become 'trendy' and everyone figures they can handle it. Not everyone's cut out to be a shaman. In ancient societies, those folks were probably selected very carefully ... as opposed to handing the keys over to some knucklehead tourist wandering through South America on holiday.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#14
Yak,

Agree, ancient people were not stupid at all, that's another modernist error.

Harner appears to me to be a modern pagan wannabe as well.

If you're interested in some OT theology and how these " ancient pagan gods"(beney elohim in the Massoretic text and sometimes just elohim in specific contexts) play such a huge role in all biblical theology all the way to the day of the cross on into the current opposition to Christ in the global zeitgeist as we speak AND make you better understand why the ancient people worshipped these guys like they did, check out Dr. Michael S. Heiser's "The Unseen Realm". If you prefer a shorter less detailed version, there is "Supernatural".

He's a very highly regarded Christian confessional scholar in the research fraternity and one of the few who has majored on this particular "theological track" because it is so controversial and most folks are afraid to confront the truth and suffer the reaction.

It's probably the most fascinating book I've read in the last decade and I am a voracious reader of theology.
Might not be the most significant work I've read, but, it is by far the most fascinating because it explains and makes excellent logic of so many biblical events we tend to see from a childish Sunday school perspective.

He accesses the OT texts, the ANE pagan texts we now know of we never did until the late 19th century and inter testamental Jewish writings which all paint a much more accurate picture of what the OT is about.
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#15
(10-02-2015, 02:50 PM)John L Wrote: ...I am naturally on the lookout for different cranial feathers in people, in general. I see quite a few people having cranial morphology that certainly looks more primitive than what we are supposed to look like.

Its funny, I was trained in artistic anatomy, and one study notes how cultural features change from place to place. If you go fifty miles in any direction, the people have measurable changes in their features of a sort that is even more pronounced fifty miles further up the road. Go the whole way south to north, and you see African features morph into Scandinavian. West to East and you see the eyes and ears change. I can look at a photo and do a Professor Henry Higgins on it.

How do the Neanderthal features look in a place where people have epicanthric folds as compared to those places without?

One of the indicators that Amerinds came to North America over an ice bridge is the wet dry wax as opposed to the wet earwax of Europeans, as well as the lack of beards.
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#16
Something's screwed up Bill. I can see your post if I try to edit it, or if I want to copy it. However, if I take your post and try to post with it, mine also shows nothing. Shock
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#17
Missing bracket? ... I put one in and looks like it worked above.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#18
Now it's working... It was posted correctly, but didn't show up. When I tried to repost it, it said it was already posted. I Tried to edit the empty post, and everything was there. I posted the edit and it came up????
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#19
(10-04-2015, 10:18 PM)WmLambert Wrote: Now it's working... It was posted correctly, but didn't show up. When I tried to repost it, it said it was already posted. I Tried to edit the empty post, and everything was there. I posted the edit and it came up????

I added a bracket after the quote line.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#20
(10-04-2015, 10:25 PM)mr_yak Wrote:
(10-04-2015, 10:18 PM)WmLambert Wrote: Now it's working... It was posted correctly, but didn't show up. When I tried to repost it, it said it was already posted. I Tried to edit the empty post, and everything was there. I posted the edit and it came up????

I added a bracket after the quote line.

Yep, that was it Jack. I removed the bracket "]" and it disappeared. I'll restore it now. S22

And now its back.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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