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Putin's Russian Style Reconquista
#1
This article from Geopolitical Monitor is a couple of months old, but it spells out the possible problems involved with Putin's attempt to reconquer his neighbors, at least economically. Russia's Eurasian Economic Union Faces Resistance in Central Asia

But what is most interesting is the main economic conflict with what is considered to be Russia's biggest ally.

Quote:Russia has a major competitor in the region – China. In May, China unveiled its ‘Silk Road Economic Belt’ plan, which involves spending $16.3 billion to bolster trade routes between China and the Central Asian republics, via land and sea.

The plan envisages the construction of airports, ports, railways and roads throughout the region, Chinese President Xi Jinping said in November.

Chinese trade with Central Asia is immense, valued at $46 billion per year. China is the largest trading partner of all Central Asian states – minus Uzbekistan – and received over 50 million tons of crude oil since 2006 via the China-Kazakhstan oil pipeline. By 2020, the China-Central Asia pipeline, will account for 40% of all of China’s imported gas.

Central Asian states find it much easier to get on with Beijing than with Moscow, because Beijing never interferes with politics or attempts to strong-arm states into accepting policies against their will. For the moment, China is eager to build up its trade relations with these states, but whether it will displace Russia as a dominant force in the region is an open question.

Eventually Russian, and Putin, are going to have to come to grips with the fact that Russia's greatest threat, other than from its own actions, are from those of China, which will not change any time soon.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#2
This is one more heavy price Putin has to pay for his blunder in Ukraine.
Had Putin stuck with Crimea, it could have gone away with it easily. Now with the much more agressive campain in east Ukraine he has a much worse reputation abroad than earlier. I'm not going to argue wether or not Russia is sending its military force in Ukraine, what's important here is how other nations see him.

Two event came to worsen that:

1/ His comments, directed to the West, yet nonetheless scary for the Central Asians too.

2/ Not respecting the Ukraine ceasefire recently agreed upon with major state leaders. Less because of the material effect than the psychological effect. Putin is now, clearly a person with no parole.
Those who embraced some cooperation with him earlier will think twice now.

It's very difficult to build or rebuild a union with poeple who fear and distrust you.

Putin is a man who believe in the military might but he is not a diplomat. He doesn't know how to use politics so he uses or talk about using force. And talk about expanding or retracting sphere of influence, understand military influence. He looks everything with the military lens, ignoring almost everything economic and politic.

That's where China have a huge advantage over Russia. Chinese mean business, they don;t care about looking more manly with sea fleets, air force, ICBM's and thousands of tanks. They know that using these things in diplomatico-commercial negociations is never a good idea.

China has MASSIVE interrests all around the world, perhaps more than the US. But you rarely see the Chinese army deployed.

Putin will never succeed in creation a vialble Eurasian Union like the European Union because he has no political sens. He expects a relation of vassality with less powerful nations. That's not how it works.
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#3
You guys simply will not consider that the current UKE government is a bunch of un elected nuts with some neo Nazi influences, some public neo Nazi support and both are demonstrable and that it was only AFTER the overthrow of the elected governor that the ethnic Russki took up arms.

No Russian is going to tolerate bastards like that to govern them.

All you 2 see is Russia is bad, UKE is good. That's so typically American centric thoughtlessness. Sorry to be so blunt. It's a fact and you 2 have better educations than typical Americans do.

Russia, unlike the USA, has suffered from a Nazi invasion, this isn't an academic thing to a Russian, some of their grandfathers are still alive. I don't blame Putin or the ethnic Russians.

As far as China goes, China is buying their way to what they want with American transferred wealth. That's a seperate problem for Russia than sitting back watching grandkids of Nazis govern them again east UKE.
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#4
No Palladin. The former president of Ukraine has been legaly deposed by decision of Parliament, following mass protests in Kiev.
It was not only the result of longtime popular demand, it was also a constitutionaly legal procedure.

Soon afterward, fully monitored election were held in Ukraine to elect a new president and new parliament members. None of the neo-nazi parties have been elected.

If we regard the election results, it's clear that support for neo-nazi parties in Ukraine is less than minimal.

Ethnic Russians engaged directly in an armed conflict with the new central governement without trying politicaly.
Had Putin supported a pro-Russian political party in Ukraine instead of sending tanks, he would have gained more power than now, when his power is limited to military occupied territories. But as I said, he doesn't understand politics.

For him it's all CIA plots, can't be anything else. Pretty much retarded a vision, if you want to know.
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#5
(02-23-2015, 05:59 PM)Palladin Wrote: You guys simply will not consider that the current UKE government is a bunch of un elected nuts with some neo Nazi influences, some public neo Nazi support and both are demonstrable and that it was only AFTER the overthrow of the elected governor that the ethnic Russki took up arms.

No Russian is going to tolerate bastards like that to govern them.

All you 2 see is Russia is bad, UKE is good. That's so typically American centric thoughtlessness. Sorry to be so blunt. It's a fact and you 2 have better educations than typical Americans do.

Russia, unlike the USA, has suffered from a Nazi invasion, this isn't an academic thing to a Russian, some of their grandfathers are still alive. I don't blame Putin or the ethnic Russians.

As far as China goes, China is buying their way to what they want with American transferred wealth. That's a seperate problem for Russia than sitting back watching grandkids of Nazis govern them again east UKE.

LOL! I cannot answer for Fred, but with me, you couldn't be further from the truth. I started out being interested in Ukraine trouble, but quickly lost interest after the thread began getting out of hand. After that, I really haven't cared all that much. In fact, I rarely posted in that thread. Even when Uncle Misha began to go into fanatics, I only did my job of inspecting everything for problems, and that was it.

But when he came out, pretending to be another Cato The Elder, and began to "Sodomia delenda est" everything, that's when I came unglued.

You, like Michael, have conveniently overlooked, forgotten, or it never occurred to you all, that my problem is not with Russia, but it is with Putin, who is a certified Weasel. He's a crook, and a someone made to look one way, while being another.

And you, of all people, had you actually stopped all the skimming and slowed down long enough to actually read my posts, you would KNOW that I think the world of Russians. I've said this I don't know how many times, but you seem to never have never let this enter the chamber above your shoulder blades. In fact, I highly doubt you will bother reading this, so I'll be wasting my time typing this out.

As for Ukraine's use of neoNazi slogans and all, I wonder how much of it may be an "in your face" thing to mock the Duckbutt? And I wonder just how much of this is being overdone with Michael, taken from as many Russian conspiracy sites as possible. Frankly I don't care anymore. All I care about is his direct insults of my country.

Furthermore, anyone, including yourself, who believes McDaddy, or others, represent the country's citizenry have a few screws loose. I look at Putin and McDaddy as individuals, not a country. They(McDadddy or Putin) may officially be leading their respective countries, but they are NOT officially the nation of each. I view the leaders and the countries as two different things. So kindly stop pointing a crooked finger at me over all this.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#6
John,

The current situation in UKE is largely caused by the overthrow of the elected state, the replacements are partially Neo Nazis.

I don't care anymore about your personal preferences and they don't matter to this case. No human should or will tolerate Nazis voluntarily and you expect Russians to and unlike you, they are not going to tolerate it. It's easy for you 2 to tolerate it for them ain't it?

Is Putin taking advantage? well duh.
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#7
Palladin Wrote:The current situation in UKE is largely caused by the overthrow of the elected state,
No, it's caused by Russia not accepting the new elected governement.

Palladin Wrote:the replacements are partially Neo Nazis.
Not even partialy. Neo-nazi made less than 3% in the last elections, and this includes ultra-nationalists who are not forcibly nazi (but far right).
I don't remember if a neo-nazi party is represented in the parliament. But there isn't any neo-nazi minister or holding an important position in Ukraine.

Ukes call Vladimir Putin "Putler" and protray him with the moustache and the haircut of the Furer.
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#8
(02-24-2015, 05:19 PM)Palladin Wrote: John,

The current situation in UKE is largely caused by the overthrow of the elected state, the replacements are partially Neo Nazis.

I don't care anymore about your personal preferences and they don't matter to this case. No human should or will tolerate Nazis voluntarily and you expect Russians to and unlike you, they are not going to tolerate it. It's easy for you 2 to tolerate it for them ain't it?

Is Putin taking advantage? well duh.

Let me suggest something, before you think my personal preferences are anti-whatever you think. My personal preferences are simple. They are the principles of LIBERTY, pure and simple. And I don't care who is trying to eliminate it, he/she is my foe. That's the basic thing, and you can take it to the bank.

Now, that being stated, let me point you to Chapter 97 [Image: logo.gif], a Belarusian site for promotion of human rights, and pro-democracy(whatever that is supposed to mean). Its not Ukrainian, or from Western Europe, etc. So, let's see what they are putting out, concerning this Russia-Ukraine war. And its really a war.

Here's one of their articles: Andrei Illarionov: Putin was preparing war for 11 years, it will be long. Now note the name, Andrei Illarionov, there. He was a big former Russian economic policy insider, and now a senior fellow at the CATO Institute. He is a Russian economist, and probably one of the main forces which led to Russia's use of the Flat Tax. He's highly accredited.

Here's another related article. Andrei Illarionov:
Annexation of Crimea is a litmus test for Russian opposition


And here's his Vilnius speech before NATO session last year.





And here is the condensed version, appearing in the Lithunian Tribune, where Fred just happens to be residing. Note that I am making this easy for you, because I am not bombarding you with Russian, or other languages. Don't wish to confuse you, or flood you with everything but "just the facts ma'am".

If you read the Wikipedia page on Andrey Illarionov, you will see some interesting information at the bottom of the page. To wit:

Quote:2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine]

On 4 February 2014, before the Russian intervention in Crimea, Illarionov predicted that Vladimir Putin was going to implement a military operation to effectively establish political control over the Ukraine.

In late March 2014, following the Ukrainian revolution, Crimean crisis, the Crimean referendum, and the Accession of Crimea to the Russian Federation, speaking to Svenska Dagbladet, Ilarionov suggested that Vladimir Putin would seek to incorporate Finland into the Russian Federation by arguing that the granting of independence to Finland in 1917 was an act of treason against national interests: "It is not on Putin's agenda today or tomorrow. But if Putin is not stopped, the issue will be brought sooner or later. Putin has said several times that the Bolsheviks and Communists made big mistakes. He could well say that the Bolsheviks in 1917 committed treason against Russian national interests by granting Finland's independence". Ilarionov also stated that in addition to Finland, there were "other territories where Putin claims to have ownership, namely parts of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic states".

On 9 June, he predicted that starting negotiations between the newly elected Ukrainian president Poroshenko and self-proclaimed authorities of break-away republics at the East of Ukraine would ultimately result in Russian occupation or political control over the entire Ukraine

And note his reference about Finland. That is indeed interesting, don't you think? Hey, why don't you do like I am doing now. Read up on this guy, because his predictions are very relevant and he is pretty good about being right.

And Note, the REAL problem is Putin. And that's why I am so negative about Russia of late. Its also why I am so flummoxed and frustrated with our post adolescent man-child Tait, Uncle Misha, Steven Seagal, and a host of other gullible people, equipped with shallow thinking.

Putin is Dangerous to the world, and to Russia as well. He makes McDaddy look tiny in stature, and also potential. And like Andrey Illarionov states, he has to be stopped. I cannot get any clearer than this. I just don't understand Michael's attitude about all this. I would have thought he would have more common sense than to do what he is doing. This is not about prestige, or glory for the Motherland. And Crimea was one of the most important of his moves, because that is a guarantee of complete access to the Med. Why do you think he is talking nice to Turkey?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#9
One other thing about the Chapter 97 article above. Its this little part:

Quote:Illarionov mentioned two aspects of the confrontation. “This is an information war, or to be more precise, a disinformation war in all languages that creates a new vision of the world order. Unfortunately, we have to admit that they have achieved certain success both in Russia and other countries,” he said.

Another aspect is what the former president's advisor calls “nuclear blackmail”. “This is the most dangerous thing. Any responsible politician in Europe or America will do his best to prevent a nuclear war. The message of the Valdai-Sochi speeches is very clear: you must accept the new world order, otherwise I will threaten you with nuclear weapons. This is the challenge that the world cannot respond to yet,” the experts said about Putin's speeches.

And obviously they have been very successful with this 'information war', as shown here via Michael, who is sucking all this up like there is no tomorrow, and then trying to pass it on to as many as possible. And he's a college professor, so you can imagine what this is doing with people sporting less education. Some could even be living in E.Tennessee as well. S5

Concerning the "nuclear blackmail" thing, have you noticed the sudden use of strategic bombers appearing all over the place, when this has not been happening for over two decades? Have you noticed the increase in internet hacking, with poking and probing in the US and Europe?

Now, check your mail.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#10
The current UKE state is a revolutionary state guys. The ethnic Russians have revolted against the rest now. Of course Putin is taking advantage of it, we do stuff like that all the time.

We sided with Albanians doing it in Serbia. We sided with Sunnis doing it in Syria.

UKE is Russia's neighbor, so the validity of Putin's moves have more validity than our moves from 5000 miles away. Sorry, I don't give a damn what some BelaRusski guy accuses Putin of, whther or not true, Russia has more national interests in UKE than the USA does in Serbia or Syria combined.
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#11
So, you would turn a blind eye if the Duckbutt retook the Baltic countries? Or perhaps Finland, as that Russian economist(which I'm sure you haven't bothered reading about). Or perhaps Hungry? Or......................? And believe me, we don't do it all the time, as Russia does. Are you suddenly becoming a Calvinist about the world we live within? Hey, just what is the denominational name of that new church you are now attending? Just trying to gain a better understanding, don't you know?

Quote:UKE is Russia's neighbor, so the validity of Putin's moves have more validity than our moves from 5000 miles away.

That's interesting. Crimes are different, depending on which neighborhood they are living. What ever happened to the saying "What's right is right, and what is wrong.......................?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#12
A few thoughts.

First, Ukraine's status is not an American concern from my "libertarian view of the USA". Neither is Burma's, France's or Switzerland's. I don't believe in NATO. I wish them all well, regret the hell out of all the violence personally, nationally it just is not our role to play.

IF I were a globalist/empire type, I would even have concerns with Ukraine because it is both an unelected dictatorship right now whether we want to face this or not, it's leader class is a collection of fairly bizarre people and would it make good logic to assist that crew and create an atmosphere where war could break out between Russia and NATO?

That very question is why we have held back and so has Germany/NATO.

I don't think we can help them is the point, the state there is beyond redemption. Look at some of the creeps John, they have given high office to non citizens, don't you recall that goofy woman who posed nude the day she was appointed?

With your experience as a soldier fighting a war where we also had a severe dilemma deciding who and how much to rely on the unelected leaders I think you should be on board with considering the "sometimes doing nothing is the wisest course".

Russians have watched the Americans war on state after state after state since 1990, sometimes the other side gets a win and you don't get to decide who.

Anyway, I thought you were a libertarian? Are you for the US foreign role or not?
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#13
(02-26-2015, 12:27 PM)Palladin Wrote: Anyway, I thought you were a libertarian? Are you for the US foreign role or not?

Had you paid closer attention to my earlier postings, you would automatically know that I believe in the Founder's intent. That we should keep out noses out of other's affairs, and act accordingly when we are attacked. I have expressed many times that I am against all this interventionism. Where have you been all this time? Stop skimming, and start paying attention!

And I am a Liberal, in the classic sense. I quit using 'Libertarian' since I learned that that word was just a substitute for the original 'liberal' word, which had been hijacked by FDR in 1932. I use the original word, because 'libertarian' is a cop-out.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#14
Then why the hell are you bugging me because I am not supporting UKE and asking me if I just want duckbutt to have his way?
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#15
Palladin there is a margin between giving the US a major role in Ukraine and looking at the truth face to face. I'm not saying the US should interfere, just that you should stop suporting Putin's projects of re-invasions. Putin has NO RIGHT to invade Finland, Estoinia or Ukraine. End of story.

The Ukrainian governement is not a dictatorship, it has been ELECTED and the elections have been monitored by european mediators. How many times do I have to write it?
Poroshenko has been elected, against half a dozen of other candidates. The parliament too has ben elected.

And frankly, if I was Ukrainian I'd trust only foreigners from the EU or the US as minister (or head of cabinet, head of portfolio, head of commition whatever...) because the entire political and oligarch class is corrupt beyond any hope.
Poeple asked precisely for that in the streets.

And the model you are refering to doesn't hold any senior position. She is a simple office employee, perhaps even a private contractor.

Please read this opinion By Fiona Hill.
She explains in clear words the thinking of Vladimir Putin. This man is crazy and it's dangerous to have somebody crazy at the head of Russia. Tos sums it up he believes in his own propaganda.

It's time to stop this moronic paranoia in some russian circles against CIA conspiracies. If you believe that each and every event in the world is the fruit of a CIA plot, then of course you will want to nuke the US.
So my advice is stop thinking that way. Many things happen WITHOUT U.S. involvement.

Still thinking there is no russian troops in Ukraine?
[Image: fiona-insert1-1024x682.jpg]
reuters caption Wrote:A Russian flag flutters on a separatist self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic army armored personnel carrier in the town of Vuhlehirsk (Uglegorsk), February 25, 2015. REUTERS
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#16
Fred,

I don't necessarily agree with Putin's responses, I just state openly that Russia has more valid national interests in Ukraine than the USA has in Iran, Syria, Libya and Iraq.

Ukraine to Russia is = to a former US state leaving this union to Washington DC.

IF say Oregon left our union and Russia assisted Oregon doing so, then several pro USA rebels started the same deal in Eastern Oregon you can damn well bet John Kelly would be screaming for Russia to stay the hell away and desiring to assist the pro yankee rebels.

There is a level of hypocrisy involved when we Americans go on like this Fred.

You, you have a different life than we do. You live there, we do not.

If Russia has no rights here, surely you can agree we Americans have not had the rights to warring on people 5000 miles from the USA w/o them threatening us.
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#17
The problem is that those Islamic Middle Eastern states do threaten us, with terrorist attacks against all the nations of Western Civilization, including the USA, and are constantly training and arming and planning further attacks against us, our embassies and diplomatic personnel in other countries, and against targets in our own country. There comes a point where you have to be pretty stupid not to see that it is in our interest to be proactive, and go after those festering sores of Islamic terrorism where they are, where they train, where they plan, where they strap explosive vests on mentally challenged people and tell them to go into restaurants or ride on buses or huddle up with crowds of people in shopping malls. When the most extreme of the extreme try to implement their deranged, foolhardy dream of establishing some new caliphate or super-Islamic nation, and go around beheading anyone who does not accept their super-extremism, destabiling even the existing Islamic nations that do not go along with their super-extremism, there comes a point where we have to recognize our duty to fellow human beings everywhere to intervene and put a stop to the madness. You will have to answer to God in the Judgment for why you did not support efforts to save your fellow human beings from murderous tyrants and ruthless fanatics. Jesus Christ will say to you, "Inasmuch as you have done this to the least of my brethren [by your indifference and neglect], you have done it unto me. Depart from Me; I never knew you." Don't expect to be granted eternal life in Paradise if you allow Hell to prosper on this earth. Isolationists are not worthy of Heaven. Indifference and neutrality in a time of spiritual and physical crisis, is treason against God, and betrayal of all humanity.
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#18
Ron,

When you join the army and fight ISIS, then you can preach that is a Christian duty. Sending others to do it for you doesn't count . You're the world's worst arm chair warrior.

Not to mention ISIS didn't exist until the USA freed them up to in wars you avidly supported. Go preach about that Saturday.
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#19
(02-27-2015, 02:45 PM)Palladin Wrote: Ron,

When you join the army and fight ISIS, then you can preach that is a Christian duty. Sending others to do it for you doesn't count . You're the world's worst arm chair warrior.

Not to mention ISIS didn't exist until the USA freed them up to in wars you avidly supported. Go preach about that Saturday.

I didn't know you have served in the US military, in the past. What branch were you in?

Also, could you point me to that ISIS announcement, where they credit the US as the main cause for them doing what they do best?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#20
Palladin, I agree that the US has no business in Ukraine. Period. And with even their minimal involvement there, it has been already too much.

But for the sake of truth, you have to admit the truth about what happens there. (see picture above).

Ukraine is not Oregon. It's not part of Russia. It's an independant state recognized by the UN with the full rights of a sovereign state. They are sovereign in full without any treaty binding them to Russia whatsoever. They are free to join any international organisation they want. Putin cannot say that they have no right to join the EU.

He can argue a security concern about NATO but that's the top of cynism after he just invaded and anexed Crimea and support a rebelion in East Ukraine. Saying that Ukraine is a threat to Russia is like the wolf calling the sheep a thief for gazing the grass.

Oregon has treaties with the US which bind them to it. They can't join another union of countries or be anexed without the aproval of the Federal Governement. Not Ukraine.
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