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Middle East Meltdown, Pt. 4
#21
Here's Graeme Wood, being interviewed about his Atlantic article "What Isis Really Wants".
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#22
JL to Palladin Wrote:You need to read the article you posted: What ISIS Really Wants. I'm just getting into it, because it is so long. But Graeme Wood, a Canadian, is pretty much right on. I suspect when you finish, you and I will know a lot more about Islam than when we began.
I just read it now.
Well... if they want their Apocalypse so bad we'll give it to them.

The author is just wrong in thinking that contronting the IS theologicaly can be done by other muslims. No it can be done only by destroying Islam. Or modifying it beyond recognition but that's the same.
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#23
(02-24-2015, 08:06 PM)Fredledingue Wrote:
JL to Palladin Wrote:You need to read the article you posted: What ISIS Really Wants. I'm just getting into it, because it is so long. But Graeme Wood, a Canadian, is pretty much right on. I suspect when you finish, you and I will know a lot more about Islam than when we began.
I just read it now.
Well... if they want their Apocalypse so bad we'll give it to them.

The author is just wrong in thinking that contronting the IS theologicaly can be done by other muslims. No it can be done only by destroying Islam. Or modifying it beyond recognition but that's the same.

I'm not sure how long this is going to take, but Islam is actually doing a yoeman's job of destroying itself, in the long run. I forget where I read this, but I believe it.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world because they are multiplying like rodents, and the West is not. Lots of potential Christians, just waiting to convert. S5

I wonder what China would have to say about that since they are on the way to becoming the largest Christian counrty? S13
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#24
Here's something else very interesting, but understandable. Egypt is showing its disdain for McDaddy in several ways, including this one.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#25
Only a totally secular mind cannot "get" that for non Muslims to lead any fight against any Muslims is a losing proposition.

Fred, you'd make a great American.
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#26
(02-25-2015, 12:04 PM)Palladin Wrote: Only a totally secular mind cannot "get" that for non Muslims to lead any fight against any Muslims is a losing proposition.

Fred, you'd make a great American.

On come on. Stop insinuating that your fellow countrymen are Neanderthals. Most are not up to speed intellectually for several reasons, one of which is the constraints of time. Knowledge is Power.

Some of the most informed and dedicated 'Anti-Muslims' are former Muslims themselves. The best way to destroy an ideology that is based on war and aggression is to make available the truth, and let Muslims make up their own minds.

Also, we really MUST begin to work toward promoting Liberty in Muslim countries. And while we should remain friendly to all, we should be especially friendly toward those Muslims nations that that actually practice individual liberty. If Muslims in a country know that they are going to be persecuted, or murdered, for changing their minds about Islam, the only way for them to get out of the yoke is to flee. If a country moderates all this, those individuals will be more inclined to remain there and spread the good word of Christ.

Now someone tell me I am wrong on this.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#27
John

I don't think we're Neanderthals or stupid. I think we think we're special, which leads us to have a flawed perspective.




We're infidels to those people, if we put westerners in this fight openly, you are helping ISIS make the case this is just another crusade against Islam and think, they are doing so well recruiting because so many youth already are enamored with them.

Plus, us and Shiites killing Sunnis? A pr bonanza. They want us in this fight John, their religious logic from that article says infidels are going to try and destroy Islam, etc. We're making it seem valid if we send large quantities of troopers, IMO.

I'd help them, that's it. Plus, Iraq has already started bucking about us telling them when to do any assault on Mosul. It's their country. That's a massive city and to win that battle, Mosul will be flattened. Mosul makes Fallujah look like Oak Ridge.
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#28
(02-25-2015, 06:25 PM)Palladin Wrote: John

I don't think we're Neanderthals or stupid. I think we think we're special, which leads us to have a flawed perspective.

We, as a country ARE special. We have been blessed with Founders, who did something for us that has never been done in history before. And you are beyond being able to appreciate it.




Quote: We're infidels to those people, if we put westerners in this fight openly, you are helping ISIS make the case this is just another crusade against Islam and think, they are doing so well recruiting because so many youth already are enamored with them.

Plus, us and Shiites killing Sunnis? A pr bonanza. They want us in this fight John, their religious logic from that article says infidels are going to try and destroy Islam, etc. We're making it seem valid if we send large quantities of troopers, IMO.

Are we preaching to the choir now? Shock

Quote: I'd help them, that's it. Plus, Iraq has already started bucking about us telling them when to do any assault on Mosul. It's their country. That's a massive city and to win that battle, Mosul will be flattened. Mosul makes Fallujah look like Oak Ridge.

Personally, I hope the Iraqis don't go after Mosul. The Kurds are going to take care of that problem by the end of this year, I believe. They are who we should be helping. And the Kurds will not be flattening it, because that is also their city, not those lackluster Shia Iraqi. The problem is that Iraq fears the Kurds taking off on their own, and when they do, they don't want them to have Mosul. So they will go after it for that reason alone.

Now, if you want to see some real flattening, just bring in the Russians and pay them to help out. They would be happy to show the Iraqis how they did it all in Grozny, which was on their own soil. It would be like going to the Russian dentist to have a tooth filled, and have the dentist pull out pliers and a mallet. That too would fix the tooth, but just not in the best way. S5

Oh, and I have no earthly idea what you mean by that last sentence. Gah
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#29
Mosul will look like Grozny if there is an invasion. The people over there are not about to go house to house with small infantry, it makes no logic from their perspective. They love the old Russian tactic, "never send a soldier where an artillery shell can go".

You over rate the Kurds, they are not numerous enough to do this.

ISIS is not as stupid as you think , if the Kurds took a major % of peshmerga toward Mosul, ISIS would successfully invade and ravage Irbil, they already came close to doing so very recently.

ISIS is accessing someone's satellite imagery John, there is no other explanation for them being able to move large numbers across Syria and Iraq and our USAF just doesn't see them doing so. They never get whacked real bad do they?

We're about as special as everyone else is.
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#30
(02-26-2015, 12:52 PM)Palladin Wrote: We're about as special as everyone else is.

You went and read the first sentence, "We, as a country ARE special.", and then skipped the rest, didn't you. Either that, or you don't know the difference between "We" as people/individuals, and "We" as a country. You look only at the former, and I the later. We, as a nation, are special because we have something the rest of the world doesn't have: the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, along with some other things. That's what makes us special.

Hey, I get it. Your negativity toward humanity is shaping your attitude. If you are content thinking the worst, have at it. I'll take a more positive approach, thankyouverymuch.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#31
If humanity needs a positive view, then be consistent with humanity, your positive view is limited to us and Israel. I always have held the original sin view and I used to be pagan like in my USA worship, too.

Look at the fathers' work here. Developed a great constitutional document, largely have not lived by it though.

In order to get around problems it would have caused, we concluded blacks were 3/5 human so slavery was taken care of immediately. How hard was that one? That's not a difficult chore John, it's whatever is popular at the moment.

Did you know that in 1963 poor WHITE Alabamans could not vote? The civil rights act inadvertently gave him the vote, too. It destroyed poll taxes. They also affected the poor whites. Well, that isn't popular anymore is it?

I bet a poor Jamaican could vote in 1963.

Yea, we've also done some nice stuff, too.

This "US is special" is insanely dangerous, it leads us into terrible conduct like telling others who gets to rule them, then killing people when they don't kiss our special asses.

We never were special, not in 1776 or now, we had open, vicious slavery in 1776, how blind are you? We were as flawed as anyone else in 1776. How can any reasonable human call us special and know about the Indian Removal act of 1832?

That was a heinous societal act against a pacific fellow Christian people group. Heartless people did that and it went through both houses of congress, that was not a Jackson extra judicial move. Special my ass.

You think invading Mexico on a lying pretext was special? Killing people to acquire land is fine? You think holding the Philippines and killing 1 million meant we were special? Compared to who ?

What other state has infected it's own citizenry and foreigners with incurable diseases( yes of course, they kept it to poor black Americans and central American Indians) for research purposes except Mengela and Tojo? In the fricking 1960s?!@#$& Constitution? Really?

They know every word you speak or type. Hitler or Stalin could only dream of that ability.

OK, we did well to resist Hitler and Stalin. Not so well since 1990, not so well pre 1941, IMO. We're just not so different than the average bear. You can continue on in your "more positive" view of the USA and our history, I don't buy it.
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#32
Palladin Wrote:We're infidels to those people, if we put westerners in this fight openly, you are helping ISIS make the case this is just another crusade against Islam and think, they are doing so well recruiting because so many youth already are enamored with them.
Palladin, knowing what we know about the IS, it's a duty to help poeple in the M-E fight it. This is an obsolute necessity: We simply can't let them create their Califate for the same reasons that we couldn't let Hitler create is pan-Germanic Nazi utopia.

Another thing, if it's amount to another Crusade, so let's be it, at least that will be one point we agree to with the IS theologians. Let's fight them in their land and let's defeat not a terrorist group, but Islam.

By bombing the IS we already fight against Islam, thought we pretend otherwise. If you don't like what the IS stands for, you don't like Islam.

I propose to accept the IS offer to come and fight them on the battle field they chose. And, no, I don't believe their stupid prophecy that soon after this battle there will be the Apocalypse. Strange that this is the same theory that Ahmadinedjad told at the UN, the same theory of the 12th imam (the 12th Calif in this case, still the number 12) and the coming of a Christ-Warrior (as if the Christ ever wanted to kill poeple). We won't go there to fulfill their prophecies, we will go there to eliminate these morons and finish it up once and for all. We have to do it.

The illogism of the 2003 invasion of Iraq and its occupation is that nothing was done to counter the rise of Islam there eventhought every group fighting against american soldiers were openly Islamic. Al Sadr Brigades, AQ in Iraq and other pre-IS groups were all Islamist. Yet not a word against Islam: It's not a crusade against Islam. Sure. If you invade a foreign country without any goal it's not difficult to lose.

If the next time we go with a massively advertised intention of fighting against Islam and liberate the populations there, you will see how much motivation this war will get. And how many allies we will have all of a sudden in the M-E.

Even better, in the minds of many americans, the invasion of Iraq was a war against muslims, to kill muslims in retaliation (no matter how inocent they were). Bin Laden was muslim and attacked the US in the name of Islam, so it was logical to go there for that reason.
Bush and Blair screwed the morale of the army by telling that the goal was not reshaping the face of the world but collecting some evasive WMDs... Talking about a frustration.

Now we are surprised why the IS is so successful?

Obama at odds with Sisi
This is a mystery for me, but I have some ideas.

It's not the only mystery, another one is the categoric refusal for France to hit the IS in Syria, yet it's ok in Iraq... while everybody knows it's one and a same thing.

Then there is this song by this Egyptian pop singer.
Clearly: Egypt, Kuwait, the Emirates and Saudi Arabia (SA) are toghether against Qatar and Turkey.

IMO, SA had funded initialy the first group(s) which today form the core of the IS. The IS is a rengate organisation. When they saw their success, their power, some oil revenues, got their own weapons taken from the Iraqi army, they grew more confident and thought they could go without their sponsors. They decided to be ruled by no one and declared the Califate.

SA eventualy turned against the IS. Turkey stayed allied with the IS longer but that's about to change now. Remain Qatar which has the illusion that it can influence the group. But that won't last. The IS clrealy wants to rule alone.

SA, Kuwait and the Emirates have lost their proxy group with which they planned to control the region. New ally: Sisi. Turkey and Qatar staying outside the new coalition. Egypt, SA, Kuwait and the Emirates are now ready to create their new, modern form of Islam and counter the IS but being also an Islamic group.
They are observing the degradation of the IS and prepare to take the torch of Jihad once the group collapses by itself.

The Golfer is automaticaly at odds with Sisi because he bet on the wrong horse, the Muslim Brotherhood (MB). The MB is off the political scene, but Obama has to keep his promises to a range of poeple.
Obama has also some allies in Lybia and he doesn't want Egypt to get into Lybia and make it Sisi's sphere of influence.

France can't attack IS in Syria perhaps because of their links in Lebanon. Thought Lebanon is anti-IS as well as anti-Assad, France can't do anything which could be seen as helping Assad. but lebanon doesn't care about what they do in Iraq.

Just my 2¢.
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#33
Now that ‘Jihadi John' has been positively identified, there are some facts that must be known by all.

Mohammed Emwazi Is ‘Jihadi John': 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

[Image: Jihadi-John.jpg]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#34
Fred,

If I was a US senator, my first role would be to find out IF the US is involved with ISIS because I think there is a 50% chance we are. I wouldn't waste naïve American kid's lives to fight what we secretly have helped.

If I decided we were not involved, then you have to decide what to do. I don't know what to do personally. Half the peninsula is backing ISIS, half is opposed to them, Turkey I don't believe is reliable anymore.

Do you want to assist Iran to become the regional hegemon, yes or no because destroying ISIS is likely to make Iran the new local kingmaker. If ISIS fails, Iran gains because ISIS is partly an invention of Sunni Arabs and probably Turkey to prevent Iranian/Shiite rule in the fertile crescent. Since those Sunnis are our local allies and since ISIS never seems to be on the receiving end of US air strikes in a major way, I can't help but think we're assisting those people.
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#35
After searching a little bit more, it seems that arabs are furious at Qatar for being seemingly the last country to openly support terrorist groups, notably the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas and at Obama for meeting the Emir of Qatar.

Qatar seems the last official sponsor of islamo-terrorism in the region, with perhaps Turkey.
It has been suggested to the Emir that Hamas'leader, Khaled Meshaal who is based in Doha, Qatar, should move to Istanbul. The same Khaled Meshaal has been VIP host of Saddam Hussein before 2003.

Interrestingly
Egyptian columnist, Ahmed Musa Wrote:Qatar, "which is allied with Israel and the US," was being used to fight Arab countries such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Libya and Syria.
Al-Makal newspaper, columnist Ahmed al-Faqih Wrote:"The Qatari dwarf that feeds the ISIS monster."

Al-Faqih claims that Qatar is nothing but a pawn in the hands of the US and the Israeli Mossad, and that Qatar uses its resources to support terrorism.

Probably naming Israel is more an insult than a real information, but the place is familiar with oxymorons real as well as imaginary.
Even better: Qatar is believed to be friendly with Iran...

The M-E can be summed up as such:
Islamists against Islamists against Islamists

For many arabs and egyptians, the MB is clearly supporting IS.
The Muslim Brotherhood organization is supporting the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS),

Now why Obama who wants to destroy IS supports the MB? Because Qatar hosts the largest US base in the region from which the USAF can bomb IS' positions.

Haven't we finished with absurdity? NO!

Egypt is making an alliance with SA, Kuwait and the UAE... and they call themselves a moderate muslim regime!
How can they be moderate when their allies, the wahhabits, are the most radical islamic dictature ever created under the Mecca's sun?

How can Sisi's regime be called moderate muslim if they sentence a student one year in jail for an atheist comment on facebook?

The reality is that several factions, which can be regrouped into 3 main ones are fighting each others for the title of Commander of the Believers (In Arabic: أمير المؤمنين).

1/ IS
2/ Iran
3/ The Egypt-SA-Kuwait-UAE axis

Erdogan still didn't make up his mind about which Califate to join...

Haddit:

Palladin, I don't think the US have directly helped IS or does it now, but they did helped insurgencies in Syria and Lybia, and 3/4 of it became IS. I think that the US strikes on IS are real. But as always the US is still carefuly maintaining the balance of power between sunnis and shiites.
Did you notice recent overtures to Iran in nukes talks?
And the laisser-faire when the Houttis are taking over half of Yemen?

The illogism of the US/West policy in the M-E is that by fear of a global Islamic power, we support Islamic powers!

Not only Obama but just about every US and UK presidents since Lawrence of Arabia.

No wonder why it's always we-lose-they-win patern.

The IS is interresting because if it persists it will create a third islamic force beside the tradition sunni/shia duality. IS consider apostate not just Iran, but all muslims who are not them, including non-IS sunnis.
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#36
Maybe we have inadvertently helped ISIS only, but, it would not stun me to find out we did more. You know we'll associate with the devil if it advances our interests.

Our military is exhausted, not sure if we could move ISIS out of Mosul w/o major big time war crimes. Pretty much, that city is going to evaporate if ISIS is removed.
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#37
My, how some things change: Egyptian court declares Hamas a 'terrorist organization'

Quote:CAIRO (AP) — An Egyptian court declared Hamas a "terrorist organization" on Saturday, further isolating the rulers of the Gaza Strip who once found a warm welcome under the country's past Islamist government.

The ruling by Judge Mohamed el-Sayed of the Court For Urgent Matters described Hamas as targeting both civilians and security forces inside Egypt's restive Sinai Peninsula and aiming to harm the country. The Sinai has been under increasing attack by Islamic extremists since the Egyptian military ousted Islamist President Mohammed Morsi in 2013.

It really does look like the Middle East is shaping up into a two-sided affair. And I am still somewhat amazed that Israel is finding itself in the camp occupied by the Saudis and Egypt.

Quote:In Gaza, Hamas official Mushir al-Masri condemned the decision and urged Egypt to reverse course.

"This ruling serves the Israeli occupation. It's a politicized decision that constitutes the beginning of Egypt evading its role toward the Palestinian cause," he said. "This is a coup against history and an Egyptian abuse of the Palestinian cause and resistance, which fights on behalf of the Arab nation. We call on Egypt to reconsider this dangerous decision."

This is really putting pressure on Hamas, with its neighbors now against them, except the pro-Iran factions. Their only effective ability to import arms and other supplies are from the sea.

If we do see a formal treaty between SA and Israel, like the ones with Jordan and Egypt, it will be a fait accompli as to the legitimacy of Israel concerning the movers and shakers of that area. And if Iran is allowed to acquire nuclear weapons, things are bound to get hairy over there.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#38
JL Wrote:It really does look like the Middle East is shaping up into a two-sided affair.
If you think sunni/shias, it has always been a two side affair. Now, this is my theory, some sunni groups like Hamas, MB, AQ and IS grew increasingly independant and the official sunnis powers don't like it. It's fine as long as terrorist groups are under their control, not if they usurpate the leadership of Islam.

What I see is a reaction by Egypts and Saudis against the rise of an independant Califate.

So this is a 3 side affair now.

JL Wrote:And I am still somewhat amazed that Israel is finding itself in the camp occupied by the Saudis and Egypt.
Not me. Saudis and Egypt have always been neutral toward Israel and in this region it means friendly. Egypt has always limited albeit never completely prohibited Hamas movements and tunel traffic except under Morsi.
Today the rise of rogue Islamic forces oblige them the strenghten their stance, like declaring Hamas a terrorist organisation which makes them de facto ally of Israel.
Still doesn't mean that they accept Israel, forget the claim of Return or will allow jews to come back to Saudis Arabia. The Saudis-Egypt Axis is still the leadership of Islam and the ultimate authority for the Jihad if any. Otherwise they have no legitimacy for the million of muslims who believe in the Sharia.

According to the Sharia and most muslims the power of a political leader is legit only if he vows to defend Islam first and foremost and declare himself the Chief of the Islamic Religion in his country (The Commander of the Believers or Calif is a title for a single person to be agreed globaly so it can't apply normaly to chief of states).
That's what the deposed or semi-deposed dictators forgot to do...
Sisi understood that perfectly and suddenly gained respect from the Saudis doing so (among others).

Everything depends wether enough muslims accept al-Baghdadi as their new Calif (and therefor the IS as the new Califate)...
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#39
If the US is indeed guilty of the multitude of things some found here, or in other locales have stated, then adding yet one more to the mix seems appropriate. And especially when this one is really doing a yeoman's job of actually stirring up things for the worse.

Allah Versus KFC: How an unlikely American ideologue is inspiring Egypt’s new generation of Islamic militants.

This is a "Must Read" article if one is going to understand what is now occurring in Egypt, and most likely about to sweep across the land of Allah. Foreign investors beware.

Can anyone here see the tie with Islamic Socialism and the New Anti-Capitalism that this American Made Islamic genius/dunce is preaching? Its actually quite ingenious in its tactic of going around the military, and attacking the non-Muslim foreign investment as the primary source. That way, the target country is impoverished further, fermenting further discontent, and forcing medieval Islam on to the populous.

Leave it to a deranged American to come up with this.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#40
Anti-corporatism is very apealing to the youth. Will work...
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