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Sebastian Junger on Why Young Men Go to War
#1
Gunnen4u Wrote:Sebastian Junger on why young men go to war, and why society's often have a latent fascination with War:


https://medium.com/war-is-boring/sebasti...163804cbf6
He is right, and the implacations for the surviveability of the West are not good. Interesting how reserved he is on gender differences, like he would be blacklisted or something.

The military sucks, but there is a reason so many young men find fulfillment in it.
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#2
He's absolutely correct, especially about the 'biology and rite of passage' part. And I'm so glad you read this, because hopefully this will resonate within you. There is a reason why we constantly are taking that journey to 'perceived' manhood, and why it leads so many to an early grave.

But he left out one thing that he obviously doesn't have a certain thing controlling him. And that 'certain thing' is drug addiction. Most males, who do 'on the margin' things, place themselves in harm's way, do because they are addicted to adrenaline. I'm a certified adrenaline addict. I did things that would make your hair stand on end. Driving a motorcycle down the interstate, with lots of traffic, and doing it at over 100mph is a sure-fire, absolutely positive way to know an adrenaline addict when you see one.

I loved combat. Its the most invigorating activity out there. Its the ultimate, and proves to others that he is indeed a fearless male, willing to go through anything. Of course, inside you are scared shitless, and the adrenaline is washing all over you, everything slows down, and you are moving at regular speed in a slow motion world. You are thinking faster than anyone else, and you feel like a g-d. I shit you not!

That's the 'biology' part Junger(as in Yunger) overlooks, but he doesn't understand because he is not addicted to adrenaline. Why do you think I miss jumping out of airplanes so much. I'd love to try sky surfing, which wasn't around when I was exiting the Cessna, or C130/141. Its great, and I know it really isn't dangerous,.....like combat, or speeding on a motorcycle.

As for the 'rite of passage' part, I understand this because I am an anthropologist. I've studied primitive societies and current tribes. And they too have the very same need we all do. They make a ritual out of warfare. There's the exhibition/posturing/feigning, etc, that goes with warfare, and especially manhood. While you are still in college, you need to take an anthropology course in primitive tribal behaviour, if it exists there. Its very enlightening.

And its exactly why you are doing what you do. You have this compelling need to prove not only to yourself, but others, that you are a Real Man. You collect guns, show them off. You posture publicly and am an exhibitionist on malehood. You swagger and swear, and gladly accept accolades from other members at the Manly Excellence forum. You love it, because its your way of being accepted into the group and held to high esteem.

And as someone, who has "been there, done all that" I find it a bit needless, because I already Know where I stand in it all. Its sort of like the old wolf, viewing the actions of the adolescent pup, and getting a few good laughs over it all. I really do enjoy it, this rite of passage right in front of me. Its sort of like "Did I really act that way once upon a time"?

But here's another thing. Victor Davis Hanson is way ahead of Yunger on all this. His "Carnage and Culture" is a masterpiece on Western warfare, and why other countries cannot compete with it. He begins with the Greeks, goes through the Anabasis, and shows why ideology is so important to how warfare is fought. If you haven't read it yet, you should be required to. Its eye opening, especially the preface.

And if you think the West is headed to destruction, think twice. The Western art of warfare is not dead. Its just dormant, with the exception of the US.

I know I am looking at this from a societal POV, and you are talking personal POV, but you have to understand the former before you can truly understand the later. Anyway, you're actually collecting the tools for bringing this all together. I see hope for you. Just don't get yourself killed in the process: you have plenty of time to reach your destination. S5
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#3
So, basically you just told me I was a troglodyte, ignorant and on the level of some African villager while telling everyone, including me, through posturing and fanciful language that you are smarter and better than me and other men, trying to gain the most acceptance.

LOL

No wonder I stopped reading most of your posts. Most of them are huge mental gymnastics and rationalization of the highest order. We used to be really alike, John, but my how things have changed.

Do me a favor and refrain from at least ruining the thread. I think this issue is very important, and we are seeing culture turmoil over our continuing removal of it.
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#4
NO, you self-centered late adolescent Asshole! Quit being so Me, Me oriented, because you aren't the most important person in this world, to most folks. And if you look at my posts as "huge mental gymnastics and rationalization", perhaps its trying to tell you something.

Grow Up! I realize that eventually you will, but please hurry it up a little bit.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#5
There seems more than 1 reason for joining the military:

1) Prove you're a man to yourself

2) Attraction of the adrenalin rush idea(George Washington expressed this feeling in the French and Indian war for example)

3) Become part of a group/pseudo family thing. The Spartans did this, they took little kids and raised them for future Spartan military service. They also used societal cast aways a lot. We do that as well, probably every military does.

4) Self sacrifice. I still think some people join for this cause.

5) Need a job

6) Trying to impress Americans so they can become citizens or improve their ethnicity's lot here( examples are blacks in the civil war and the Tuskeegee Institute fliers, ethnic Mexicans joining back in WWII while tons of their family were being deported brutally leading up to WWII, ethnic Japanese joining in WWII while they were treated like Hitler lite here, modern foreigners joining to get citizenship

7) Psychopaths - You can kill people legally and illegally and often not get caught.

Except for the commissioned officers, I would love to know how many each idea equals?
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#6
There are many reasons Pat, but many of them, as Junger says, seem to boil down to a rite of passage or initiation or proving themselves, even if it is to earn a paycheck to prove you can work and feed yourself.

The great tragedy is that Western society abhors masculinity and so had torn down much of what existed that stipulated what a man was. You even see it in how JohnL treats the subject of being masculine.
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#7
(02-13-2015, 05:26 PM)Gunnen4u Wrote: There are many reasons Pat, but many of them, as Junger says, seem to boil down to a rite of passage or initiation or proving themselves, even if it is to earn a paycheck to prove you can work and feed yourself.

The great tragedy is that Western society abhors masculinity and so had torn down much of what existed that stipulated what a man was. You even see it in how JohnL treats the subject of being masculine.

No you don't, not the way you are attempting to tell it. You strut around, thinking that to be a man, you need to do certain things, which include foul language, beating one's chest, and shouting your manhood to one and all. And I say that is nothing more than someone really trying to make himself comfortable with something he really hasn't proven to himself, or others.

When you have done something that required supreme moral courage, you will know and not need to broadcast to everyone. In fact, Real Men don't advertise: they just take care of business. If you don't get that by now, its going to be a long time before you reach that cherished destination you keep trying to get everyone see you cross into.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#8
John, you are addressing defense mechanisms: the self-defining actions that prove a person's inner inadequacies. Those who swear the most have the smallest vocabularies - and use profanity to hide ignorance. Having knowledge and skills is the quintessence of manliness. I consider great minds like Da Vinci or Tesla to be far above those who tell everyone how virile they are.

Western civilization does not abhor masculinity. The hundred people who entered the University of Michigan pre-term with me were all Presidents of their graduating classes, Presidents of their student bodies, as well as Captains and decorated athletes. One attribute without the other was not enough to join this grouping. These kids were all selected as alpha leaders. What was the basis for their selections were not just muscles and grit.
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#9
(02-14-2015, 12:03 AM)WmLambert Wrote: John, you are addressing defense mechanisms: the self-defining actions that prove a person's inner inadequacies. Those who swear the most have the smallest vocabularies - and use profanity to hide ignorance. Having knowledge and skills is the quintessence of manliness. I consider great minds like Da Vinci or Tesla to be far above those who tell everyone how virile they are.

In Tait's case, I highly dispute that. He is well articulate enough to fit into practically any strata. This has nothing to do with his language inadequacies. And knowledge and skills are not the quintessence of manliness. They are highly regarded accessories, but moral courage and willingness to do the right thing, under extreme pressure/danger, are of far more value.

Quote:Western civilization does not abhor masculinity. The hundred people who entered the University of Michigan pre-term with me were all Presidents of their graduating classes, Presidents of their student bodies, as well as Captains and decorated athletes. One attribute without the other was not enough to join this grouping. These kids were all selected as alpha leaders. What was the basis for their selections were not just muscles and grit.

Again, that has nothing to do with what Tait and I are referring to.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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