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Did Muhammad Really Exist?
#1
==> http://frontpagemag.com/2012/bruce-thorn...mad-exist/

Fairly interesting (reading it now); and in many ways close to previous discussions we had (== Morozov's POV). Not identical.

While both consider early Islam to be a Christian sect and also concur on the absence of historical Muhammad as well as the Arab conquest not being driven by Islam (no Islam yet), they disagree on at least these items:

1. When Muhammad was invented. Per Morozov, 11th-12th centuries; per Spencer, 8-9th century. Spencer is more plausible here.

2. What made the Arab conquest possible. Spencer simply ignores the topic, so Morozov's POV (opposition to centralized Byzantine Christianity) stands.

3. The significance of 622AD. To me, both theories are lacking.
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#2
Who cares!
'It's not who votes that matters, it's who counts the votes'  |  György Schwartz, Budapest, Hungary
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#3
If Muhamad didn't exist, then who the hell invented Islam?
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#4
The answer to your question is INDEED, yes and everyone knows that in-fact this world was created for the man known as MUHAMMAD (PBUH). Allah has mentioned his name many times in Quraan.
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#5
Romavia,

God created the world for Muhammad? Is that what you meant to write?
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#6
(01-21-2014, 06:23 PM)Palladin Wrote: MV,

The Arabs went east and west.

I realize the Christians in those NA region areas largely had lost their faith, but, I didn't think the people just sat by while the Arab armies went all the way to Spain and India. Didn't the Arabs force their way in with violence?

In some places, but mostly peaceful. Early Islam was an amalgamation of Christian sects that wanted independence from the Byzantines and Rome, exactly the heretical provinces got "conquered". Spain's Visigoths were Arians (== Christ a prophet only, just like Islam), so they got "conquered".... but Franks in France were Catholics, so they resisted. Zoroastrian Persia is the only country that resisted but was still taken by force. India happened later.

It is important to understand that there was no Islam in the modern sense yet at the time of the conquest... Mohammed was invented 100 years later....


(And do notice that the population of Arabia is way too small for such a conquest.)
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#7
That scenario sort of fits with something my preacher said once. It went like this. "If the church was squared away back then, you'd never have heard of Islam".

I guess to the Arians and guys like that, the orthodox view sort of considered them bad so they said "F it" and went with the new wave.
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#8
Either the orthodox views or the central power exercised from afar. Arian viewpoint difference btw was only one of many, the policy toward icons was imo a huge ideological factor.
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#9
BTW, I linked this before, it is really worth getting and reading:

http://www.amazon.com/Did-Muhammad-Exist...161017061X

not the full story by far, but gives a big part of the picture.
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#10
I'm glad you brought this book up. I've been meaning to read it, and have glanced over it before going to a SciFi book. S6

My question is this: is Spencer being unbiased in his conclusions? He does have quite a few critics, many who are not Leftists. I read an article of his a few years ago, but have forgotten its content.

I keep getting him mixed up with Daniel Pipes for some reason.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#11
He provides sufficient amount of evidence that it is unimportant if he is biased. And what he says mixes find with other work... for instance Spencer has next to nothing between the connection of early Islam to alternative Christianity groups, but that was covered by Morozov et al and connects for fuller picture. Same Morozov had very interesting details on how Muhammed was reported in Europe (references were very late in coming and there was an uncertainty whether Muhammed was a person or a local god), this is the part Spencer missed.

Anyway, Spencer's problem is incompleteness.
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#12
(01-21-2014, 10:27 PM)mv Wrote: He provides sufficient amount of evidence that it is unimportant if he is biased. And what he says mixes find with other work... for instance Spencer has next to nothing between the connection of early Islam to alternative Christianity groups, but that was covered by Morozov et al and connects for fuller picture. Same Morozov had very interesting details on how Muhammed was reported in Europe (references were very late in coming and there was an uncertainty whether Muhammed was a person or a local god), this is the part Spencer missed.

Anyway, Spencer's problem is incompleteness.

Who is Morozov? Never heard of him.

Opps, you did write about him last year. Any articles by him?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#13
Mentioned on the forum more than once, you can do a forum search. S6
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#14
Michael, I don't have the time. I found one, but only by accident. All I need is his name, and work. And too there is more than one Morozov who writes books.

I did do a little scratching around, and there is this: The historicity of Muhammad, Aisha and who knows who else.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#15
I did not mean search the internet, I meant search AI-Jane for previous discussions, I'm sure you were on some of them.

Your link above ... better use the link he cites,
http://www.trykkefrihed.dk/blog/335/The-...o-else.htm
the argument about leap months is a good one (and I don't remember Spencer using it). No idea why the author of your link even mentions Morozov or new chrono stuff.

Start with Spencer regardless, it is in English. If you are still interested in the subject after you are done with this book, I'll see what I can locate, or maybe translate a few key paragraphs.

There is a brief summary of Morozov's views in Ibn Warraq's article, but unfortunately it is so brief that it gets distorted somewhat. Ibn Warraq is of course also a must-read.
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#16
I guess you did search and found this older thread... S6
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#17
I'm trying to get all the related posts together here in the "Did Muhammad Exist thread". I had to add "Really" to the thread title to make certain the title was not "(Split) Middle East Meltdown Pt 2"

This software has some bad quirks that I just can't seem to get used to. But I think I have it changed now.

Incidentally, here is an article from The Blaze on this topic: Did the Prophet Muhammad Really Exist? This Is Robert Spencer’s Shocking Answer There's also a video where he is being interviewed on his book.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#18
OK... this is a bit off-topic, but since Morozov did come up a couple of links on him.
Wiki biography.
Google books link on Morozov as a terrorism founder. ("Terrorist struggle" in Arabic can be found on AQ sites S13 )

And a comment on Judaism link: the idea that Islam is a Judaism derivative (rather than a Christianity derivative) came up before, Spencer I think cites one work. Ibn Warraq effectively says that Morozov advanced this too... but in reality Morozov said something different: to him, Arianism was a form of Judaism (unclear how valid is this), and Islam a derivative of Arianism...
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#19
Also, here's the British historian Tom Holland's Channel 4 program "Islam: The Untold Truth", which went viral in England. In fact it has been banned there, obviously because the Muslims went nuts over it, and threatened his life. Brits are quite squeamish about violence, so they withdrew it rather than allow a real discussion of its merits. S5





And here's the reaction video.



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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#20
Here's a book review of Spencer's work.

And here's another, from Crisis Magazine.

And the Washington Times.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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